| Author | Message | ||
     Tessa Lawton New member Username: tessa Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 195.92.67.70 |
Today the BBC news have this story about how U.K museums and universities may now have to repatriate many human remains. www.bbc.co.uk/news/1/hi/sci/tech/3241369.stm I would assume that this means that some of the mummies in their collections would be returned to Egypt? Most of all I would like to think that the mummy buried beneath a branch of McDonalds in Scotland might finally be found a more suitable resting place! Best wishes to all, Tessa. | ||
| bernhard a. grundl Senior Member Username: bernhard_grundl Post Number: 551 Registered: 09-2002 Posted From: 193.27.50.73 |
Dear TESSA, here again a short report concerning the above-mentioned two "McDONALD"s mummies: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1718135.stm and then "mummy no 1911-210-1" of the small mummy collection at EDINBURGH ( national museums of scotland ) : http://www.rcsed.ac.uk/journal/vol45_2/4520005.htm best regards: Bernhard | ||
| Tessa Lawton New member Username: tessa Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 195.92.67.75 |
Dear Bernhard, Thank you so much for those links. I was very interested in the second one as I find the facial reconstructions totally fascinating. Can you tell me anything about the metal plate placed over the tongue? Was it a common practice and was it something done on the later mummies from the Roman period? My best wishes to you, Tessa. | ||
| James M. Vance Senior Member Username: jmvance Post Number: 60 Registered: 09-2002 Posted From: 12.212.108.54 |
I believe the "metal piece" to which you refer is probably a coin. During the Roman period, a coin was placed in the mouth so that the soul could always pay the fare to cross the river Styx into the afterlife. | ||
| Tessa Lawton New member Username: tessa Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 195.92.67.70 |
Hi James, In the second web link that Bernhard gave the photo shows a 'metal piece' shaped like a tongue. I suppose it was used instead of coins? If so, I wonder if you can tell me why that might be? Best wishes, Tessa. | ||
| James M. Vance Senior Member Username: jmvance Post Number: 61 Registered: 09-2002 Posted From: 12.212.108.54 |
Tessa, It really surprises me that the metal object is triangular instead of a coin! I have absolutely no idea why this is so--perhaps someone else can give a reason. As you say, it might have been a substitute for a coin, but I doubt it. The mummy is most assurdly from the Roman period--the face-mask identifies it as such. I have heard of various materials used in the mouth of mummies before the Roman Period. I'd like to hear other opinions on this. J.D,? Bernie? Anyone? Jim | ||
| bernhard a. grundl Senior Member Username: bernhard_grundl Post Number: 556 Registered: 09-2002 Posted From: 193.27.50.74 |
Dear JAMES and TESSA, we need a more precise image of this elliptic (!) metal (!) object. if of interest for you, James, one should contact the "guys" from scotland/edinburgh to ask for some more detailed CT-images regarding this object. because an elliptic shape does not point to a coin, put into the mouth of the deceased person (as so often practised in many ancient cultures, and still used up today, maybe in a little modified way ), it can be one of the iron blades - in elliptic/triangular flat shape - ( in earlier times made of meteoritic-iron ) used to perform the mouth-openening ceremony. in this case esp. this shape would indicate one of the so called (two) NTJRWY-blades (these two blades belonging to the Psh-kf set - eventually in strong context with the two hieroglyphic triangular/"boomerang"-shaped (!) looking signs - well,see my comments above some days ago ). another aspect is the late dating of this "petrie-3" mummy (discovered 1911 at hawara), which could result in a little different ceremonial handling, so showing us one ntjrwy-blade in the mouth. or it is a another (newer?) related object-type of a (modified) funeral and mummification ceremony, or simply a very private last gift (amulet) from a person (it's wife?,..,?) in devotion to the beloved deceased man !? that's what i can say for the moment. in this context see: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/lfo/lfo013.htm and as a special service the whole offerings literature from E. A. WALLIS BUDGE (still of strong interest, but surely in some details no longer totally "state of the art" ): http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/lfo/index.htm best regards: Bernie | ||
| Nicole B. Hansen Senior Member Username: nicole Post Number: 39 Registered: 03-2001 Posted From: 217.29.140.15 |
It was quite common during the Greco-Roman period to put gold foil over various parts of the body that were in the form of that part of the body-the tongue, lips the nipples, the eyes, nostrils, the navel, the embalmer's cut, the finger and toes, even the private parts. There is a good collection of these in the Greco-Roman Museum in Alexandria. For more on this subject, see the following articles: Dunand, Françoise. 1982. "Les 'têtes dorées' de la nécropole de Douch." Bulletin de la Société française d'égyptologie 93: 26-46. Zimmer, T. 1993. "Momies dorées: Materiaux pour servir à l'établissement d'un corpus." Acta antiqua 34: 3-38. Nicole B. Hansen Ph.D. candidate, Egyptology, University of Chicago Egyptologist/Editor, Theban Mapping Project Cairo, Egypt | ||
| Tessa Lawton New member Username: tessa Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 195.92.67.65 |
Thank you Bernhard and Nicole for that information. Can I ask if there was anything left in the mouth of the earlier period mummies? Obviously from what I've learned here the coins or covering dates from mainly the Greco-Roman period. I am a complete newcomer to all this, but from what I have read I don't remember reading about anything similar being generally found in mummies from the earlier periods. From the detail of the 'Opening of the Mouth' ceremony I take it the axe like object was just offered up to the mouth, but not left in place. Best wishes, Tessa. (Message edited by tessa on November 11, 2003) | ||
| bernhard a. grundl Senior Member Username: bernhard_grundl Post Number: 560 Registered: 09-2002 Posted From: 193.27.50.73 |
Dear TESSA, a good conclusion ! and i myself do not remember a single royal or pharaonic mummy with a coin placed into it's mouth ! and i believe there is no religious background in the ancient egypt traditions of "paying" for an after-life-transport or something like that ! best regards: Bernhard p.s.: for mummy-interested people i can provide a report regarding the not so very popular "MARONITE"-mummies from the Lebanon, not so old, but older than i am today, they are dated 700 years back ! these deceased persons are telling us a tragedy of it's own. look at: http://www.mari.org/JMS/january97/700_Year_Old_Maronite.htm best regards: Bernhard | ||
| bernhard a. grundl Senior Member Username: bernhard_grundl Post Number: 561 Registered: 09-2002 Posted From: 193.27.50.73 |
Dear Tessa, here another example of a non-royal egyptian mummy, from the 22. dynasty, some hundred years before the starting of the graeco-romam period, and showing the later, but still traditional (egyptian) way of mummification. you will see NO coins or other objects put into the mouth. well, it is the mummy of priestess Tjentmutengebtiu, and she is examined via CT-technology without any remarkable destruction: http://www.sci.qut.edu.au/physci/seminar/mummies/ -- if you want to know more about mummies, including mummified subjects worldwide, and in context with their discoveries, examinations, and the scientists and institutes involved, and more details, there now exists a very actual and extensive (not cheap) publication: "The Scientific Study of Mummies" BY: Arthur C. Aufderheide / £100.00 / December 2002 | Hardback | 626 pages 17 line diagrams 328 half-tones 6 colour plates | ISBN: 0521818265 " (btw: the german issue was published in 2003 ) more details at at: http://books.cambridge.org/0521818265.htm now best regards : Bernhard | ||
| Nicole B. Hansen Senior Member Username: nicole Post Number: 40 Registered: 03-2001 Posted From: 62.114.57.169 |
Of course, as for coins, they didn't exist in earlier times in Egypt. I don't think the use of gold foil has anything to do with "paying" but rather I think it has a protective function. They are placed on parts of the body that would have been open to spirit intrusion. This is a topic I am dealing with in my dissertation so I don't want to expand on it anymore here. Nicole B. Hansen Ph.D. candidate, Egyptology, University of Chicago Egyptologist/Editor, Theban Mapping Project Cairo, Egypt | ||
| bernhard a. grundl Senior Member Username: bernhard_grundl Post Number: 565 Registered: 09-2002 Posted From: 193.27.50.74 |
Dear NICOLE, it was a little misunderstanding: the application of gold-foil was not intented for paying a kind of "afterlife-transportation-bill": that's clear ! the intention of forming gold-foil imititations of real parts of the body, even the so called (delicate) private parts (  is certainly of a total different background and imagination. well, you are working around this topic, it is very important for you and your career, so we have to be patient, waiting for the final ultimate and classical standard dissertion-work by the future PhD Hanson  ! now best wishes for your hard studies ! - Bernhard | ||
| Tessa Lawton New member Username: tessa Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 195.92.67.68 |
Dear Bernhard, Thank you once again for posting such interesting links, which I am working through. With regards to the Maronite mummies I was struck by one very interesting fact. Now you have to bear in mind that I am a newcomer to all this, so my ideas may be ....unusual!! However in recent weeks I've been reading about how cedar oil was used for mummification in Egypt, not juniper as some thought. I then read that the Maronite mummies were found in a forest of cedars. Now this makes me wonder if there could be any properties in the ground itself which might have helped to create these naturally occuring mummies. Presumably a large amount of oil would seep into the ground and perhaps could have reached through to where the bodies had been buried. I'd be very interested to know what you think. Best wishes, Tessa. | ||
| bernhard a. grundl Senior Member Username: bernhard_grundl Post Number: 566 Registered: 09-2002 Posted From: 193.27.50.74 |
Dear TESSA, actually most of the famous "cedars of the lebanon) are missing. in ancient times there have been phantastic forests of "proudly" growing big cedar-trees. ( very sad, that they have all (mostly) gone ! ) your thoughts, pointing to the preserving effect of cedar-oil, are going in the right direction ! may be, that in earlier times ( medieval era) some natural chemicals from the cedar tree have been washed during the raining periods into the ground, then penetrating the rock, and finally that way moistened the clothes of the buried (maronite) bodies. another possible carrier of cedar-oil molecules is the air around the cave-site. the cave has a relatively wide opening, thus enabling stronger winds, soaked with cedar-oil components in times of hot seasons ( you know; a tree can "sweat" enormously ), coming into the cave, and moistening the ground. all these effects would need some time ! on the other hand: some of the poor bodies haven't been found in a very good condition, so that a quite normal conservation by drying out the bodies would be responsible for natural work of conservating these human remains. as you stated above, recent examinations are showing the important effect of cedar-oil in combination with a mummifying technique as being used in egypt. ( i provided some actual reports in this context some days ago ). some teams are working about this subject, including german teams at Tuebingen and MUNICH. here a short overview concerning some current international activies. not only cedar-oil ( of special influence here the so called Guajakol chemical component of cedar-oil ), but bitumen and bee-wax as well were additional important components: http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1068869,00.html another very interesty study ( on 341 (!!)egyptian mummies was done by a french team ( Jaques Connan/Andre Macke/Christiane Macke-Ribet ) showing some more interesting details regading the mixture of all components used, the time needed for drying the corpse (=40 days) via natron, and a lot more ! another interesting item: well known in ancient times ( near east region / levante ) was the fact, that clothes, textiles and other things, even a dead body, stored in a Cedar(!)-coffin or chest, rested in a good condition over a large period of time ! probably the oil-components of the cedar-wood have their own specific antibacterial/anti-fungitive effect. a fine example in relation with a well intact 5000 year old cedar-wooden coffin you see at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2903983.stm so far for today: Best regards: Bernhard |
