| Author | Message | ||
     Lokii Britton (216.142.233.73) |
Just wondering if there was any proof to this question. Was Ankhenaten the Pharaoh in power when Moses was discovered in the bullrushes? | ||
| george (216.29.224.54) |
Lokii, No. | ||
| Lokii Britton (216.144.70.231) |
Thanks | ||
| J.D. Degreef (213.177.133.36) |
Besides, the king's name is Akh-en-Aten ("Useful to the Aten"), not Ankh-en-Aten. JD | ||
| Lokii (64.210.241.103) |
excuse my ignorance. | ||
| J.D. Degreef (213.177.158.57) |
No problem, we're all here to learn ! JD | ||
| helene Hagan (206.170.218.176) |
Hello JD: Not that I know better on the subject, but AKH-N-ATEN would read to me "Spirit of Aten," with the meaning of "Embodying Aten" (N meaning descendence of , from, of the lineage of in Amazigh language with some affiliation with archaic Egyptian.) The word 'AKH" is still a root word for us, with initial meaning of tent, physical House, (abode) and Family Lineage, Descendance of, both in the physical and spiritual sense, as well as the symbolic meaning of affiliation to a place, a group, and an ancestor. The word AKH being a root word of extreme importance to Egypt,as well as North Africa, I surely would appreciate an explanation of how you came to translate this word as "useful." Thanks. Heh | ||
| J.D. Degreef (213.177.133.111) |
Hi Helene, The translation I posted is the one commonly accepted, although yours is possible grammatically : cf. the 12th dyn. royal name s n wsr.t, Se-en-usert = Sesostris, "the Man of the Strong Goddess" -unless one should read sn-swr.t, "the Brother of Usert" ?-. But why would a king define himself as an akh-being or soul during his lifetime ? I'm not aware of the use of akh with the meaning you posted. But I seem to remember an expression such as bAk Ax n nb=f (bak akh n neb-ef), "a servant, useful to his master". JD | ||
| Helene Hagan (206.170.217.198) |
JD: AKHNATEN was a very bizarre individual, to start from, and wanted to revolutionize the entire fabric of religion in Egypt. The word "akh" is polyvalent. It indicates both the House of, and Descendance of, Lineage of, in a symbolic way. It would be the perfect word to use in his case, as he re-instituted the worship of a sun God as a Supreme God and himself as his highest priest. He was a sort of heretic/illuminary of a sort, and in his desire to "represent" himself as the Sun Cult Leader, might well have chosen the rich word "Akh" which has all these connotations, which I loosely rendered, all meanings considered, with the word "Embodiment of" Aten. It is a thought. It also somehow makes more sense than "useful"... In the case of the "servant useful to," it might also make sense if one translated this phrase as a servant who is part of the household of, taken in as part of the family...which the Tuaregs still do. That is why the "slave" status given to some of their servants makes no sense in their culture, because some servants are so close to the masters that they can intermarry with the family, and are considered incorporated into the family. For instance, in my own case, my father was "adopted" by an old Berber guy when he arrived in Morocco at a young age, penniless, and in turn, when he was able to make his way socially, this old Berber guy became a member of our family, the only grand-father I ever knew. Yet, social categories in Morocco at the time would have made him as a "servant," which would have been a horror to us, given the closeness of his relationship to my father and his grand-father relation to us, the children.... In the Amazigh social world, there are two kinds of bonds: ties through blood, and ties through closeness or proximity, fictitious relationships but no less taken as "real." this is also recognized as a formal relationship. If someone wants to be adopted by an individual or group, that person can manifest that desire through a ceremony of goat sacrifice before the doors of the people he wants to be adopted by, and it is somehow a proposition one cannot refuse. Adoption is mandated in such a case..... It is this side of ralations which I found remarkably similar in the designation of the Pharaohs as "physical" sons of AMUN through ritual, and symbolic descendance of all rulers of Egypt from the first ancestors... Alexander The Great himself - at a very late period of that history - recognized that social order by seeking the approval of the Priests of Amon at the Oasis of Siwa, which was granted to him apparently. He sought "adoption" and "legitimacy" from the religious leaders of Egypt who had from time immemorial presided over those rites during coronation ceremonies of all Pharaohs. An Egyptian could never have come a supreme Ruler of the Land without that granting of "sonship" or "heir" to Amun. Heh Again, just thoughts....Heh | ||
| J.D. Degreef (213.177.133.32) |
Helene, The problem is that I don't find such a meaning for akh in either FAULKNER's Dict. Middle Eg. or the BEINLICH Word List. We can make a comparison with Egyptian names that do have a structure such as the one you propose. The most obvious one is Si-Amon (zA-jmn). Thus with the meaning you propose the king's name would rather have been Akh-Aten, I guess. But the good news is I've found a passage of the Pyramid Texts (of Pepy I) that may support your interpretation : 1293. sit on this your iron throne, be purified with your four nms.t-jars and your four ab.t-jars which have come forth to you from the Castle of the God (aH-nTr) that you may be divine, they being filled to the brim from the Canal of the God (mr-nTr), which Horus of Nekhen gave to you. 1294. He has given you his jackal-spirits (Ax.w=f zab.w) as Horus who is in his house, as the pre-eminent one who is foremost of the Powers... Now the jackals called akhu here are two of the "Children of Horus" (ms.w Hrw), worshipped in Hierakonpolis. But to suppose that they were called akhu because they were his children is another matter. IMHO they were called akhu because they were star-gods (or at least there were stars linked or identified with them, which is certain, for they constantly appear on astronomical ceilings). JD PS : a reference provided by the AEB and which may interest you : Friedman, F.: "Ax in the Amarna Period", in: JARCE 23 (1986), pp. 99 - 106 | ||
| Helene Hagan (206.170.218.50) |
Hello JD. thanks for "Ax" reference I have no problem with the term "Akhu" refering to stars, as they refer to "ancestor spirits having become stars." "A-kh" contains the prefix "a" denoting masculine identity, and "kh" a very important root, as I said, in both archaic Egypt and in a Tamazirt. Our word for "tent" 'house", then by symbolic derivation, "house of" "family" "lineage" is : T - A - KH - M - T The initial T and final T are feminine prefix and suffix. The A - is a masculine marker. It means "man." Root 'KH" IS PRIMARY ROOT OF BERBER LANGUAGE, having to do with land, dwelling, clan, lineage. The word "akh" is the singular, masculine form still existing today in our language. The word "Takhmat" is the feminine, singular form still existing today in our language. We see the word "Akhu" (plural of "Akh" as evident in its Egyptian sense. We see the word "Akh-Akh" (the abode of the stars) as evident in its Egyptian sense. We see the word "Ankh" or "A - N- KH" as evident in its Egyptian sense for symbol for life. Therefore it seems rather evident that "AKH-N-ATEN" would have some relevant meaning to "Spiritual Lineage of Aten." Other related Amazigh words: "zdkh; tzdakh; izdakh" to dwell "tazdkht" dwelling Please see my other response to you on Megalith list for a question I have. Thanks for sharing your extended knowledge. Heh | ||
| J.D. Degreef (213.177.133.18) |
Hello Helene, Your impressive linguistic demonstration would be valid if Egyptian were a Berber language. But although both languages are related, they're not closely related, as I remember reading (not being a linguist, I can't state this from my own knowledge). One can always find parallel words, even in unrelated languages. I could try to prove that the true descendants of the AEs are the modern Germans : see Mutter, "mother" and the AE mut (mw.t) ; Atta, old German for "father", as in Attila, "little father", and AE jt (possibly read at) ; Sohn, "son", and AE sen, meaning "brother" though a shift of meaning... In our case, Ax, the link you propose isn't at all obvious from the Egyptian. From the constant representation of the akhu as stars, I favor an origin from jAxw, "shine", "light". JD | ||
| Helene Hagan (206.170.217.191) |
TO JD: 1.Present-day Tamazirt is somewhat related to proto-Berber or Libyc too. The evolution of a language should always be kept in mind, particularly in a region like North Africa overrun by so many invaders who left their marks on the land, the people, and the language. However, it is the consensus of scholars on the subject that though no direct link can be established, or "proven", an indirect relationship still exists between libyco-Berber and present-day Tamazirt. 2. I would be inventing if I were to declare that there is a direct and close relationship between present-day Tamazirt and Ancient Egyptian. This is not my proposition. 3. However, the comparisons you give are not applicable. We are not talking about languages from different families having the same sound or the same possible orthography. I could furnish you a book full of such instances. We are talking about BOTH radicals and meanings in two languages known to have other commonalities of a grammatical nature for instance, a very different proposition. 4. In such a DIFFICULT STUDY, one has to dig very far indeed to the most archaic aspects of language which might have survived. Common roots in both languages are evident in so many instances that to deny this phenomenon is unacceptable. It is in the topography, the flora, the fauna, the most basic aspects of language such as colors, cries, most profound ties to the land, that anything might yet survive in a recognizable form. This is the hard work of retention and elimination of which I am speaking of. 5. An example like the one I cited in my last e-mail is astounding. All the more that this region of the Aures mountains is one of the least touched by colonization over the ages, Roman, Arabic or French. Ta-Djer-Nit and Ta-Djer-A are sweet finds indeed. I will not overelaborate, as I am sure that, given your superb knowledge, you understand the profound ramifications. It can only be equivalent to earlier finds of mine, such as the word "Tammnt" meaning "honey" in archaic Egyptian and throughout North Africa today. Or a word like "Haq" which subsists in Tuareg with the same meaning, etc.. There are other such superb examples in my book, and I believe a Tamasheq speaker ("Tuareg") with a formation in linguistics will some day go much farther. We have already several graduate students in European Universities writing their doctoral theses on the subject, far more able to push it further than I have done as I am not an expert in Tamazirt, and without the skills of three Amazigh linguists could not have proceeded with my work at all....I am on the cutting edge, but there are young ones behind, who are thanking me for my first baby steps in the field. 6. I am very familiar with the idea of heights and worship. A lot of symbolic literature has been written on the subject (cf. Mircea Eliade). This was not what I was asking you to elaborate on, but I was rather curious about the correlation between "Djer," and Nit, which you say does not exist in archaic Egyptian; but surely you have come across the Egyptian expression "Net-djer" (pennant) associated also with the potent, the idea of "the sacred" "the holy." This term is included in my book, as decidedly of importance. Yet, at the time I wrote the book, I was unaware of this locality in the Aures mountains, and it surprises me that you did not immediately pick up the connection. Please do not reduce or devalue the painstaking work involved in this process to a simple , meaningless linguistic coincidence. I believe you know better. So do I. Net-Djer united the masculine and feminine powers or forms of the LIBYAN DIVINITY. or, IN OTHER WORDS, THE BEATIFIED ANCESTORS. Now, you must remember that DJER was the son of 'A - HA" where "A" is man, male and 'HA" Libyan Moon God. DJER was the name of the second Pharaoh of the First Dynasty and his wife's name was " HER-NIT" The term DJER-NIT is , must I spell it, the divine couple (divine, as remote ancestors that started a nation) Indeed the pennant with a flag on a mast planted in front of The Royal House or Temple was called "Net-djer." Similarly "DJOSER" or "ZOSER" BORE THE NAME OF "NET-DJER-Y-KHET" No meaningless coincidences here, sorry, and ultimately, then, I hope we can agree to disagree, and I must reiterate here that I am not trying to convince you, but to get to the best information relevant to the subject. You have been most helpful in numerous occasions. Cordially, Heh | ||
| J.D. Degreef (213.177.158.41) |
Hi Helene, >the correlation between "Djer," and Nit, which you say does not exist in archaic Egyptian< I don’t think I said that. Between djer and zer, maybe, although I wonder why early Egyptologists chose to render /D/ by /z/. Maybe something in Coptic pronunciation ? > the Egyptian expression "Net-djer" (pennant) associated also with the potent, the idea of "the sacred" "the holy".< Reading this I wondered what you meant. Actually this is a sign transcribed netjer, in its later form neter (nTr) following present Egyptological conventions. But in Coptic nTr is pronounced noute, plural ntêr. From this the word may originally have been pronounced *nutjer, plur. *ntjêru. This is rather remote from your etymology *net-djer, I’m afraid. So I can’t agree with your statement that >Net-Djer united the masculine and feminine powers or forms of the LIBYAN DIVINITY. or, IN OTHER WORDS, THE BEATIFIED ANCESTORS.< > the Egyptian expression "Net-djer" (pennant) associated also with the potent, the idea of "the sacred" "the holy".< I don’t think it was a pennant. The object in question has a triangular top on one of Aha’s tablets. This is no archaism, as it still has a similar top on New Kingdom representations of the Sais shrine at the entrance of the Sacred District. This doesn’t look like the nTr-sign, which is an object, a stick or a pole, wrapped in cloth, with a bandlet wound around it so as to hold the cloth in place. The object is seldom if ever shown being concretely used. There’s a participant to funerary and Heb Sed festivals called jrj-nTr, “who is in charge of the nTr / what is divine”. He holds a kind of staff with a knob at the top, but he doesn’t directly touch it : he’s wrapped in a shroud-like cloth, and holds the stick through the cloth. When I was a child, catholic priests would hold the monstrance containing the host in this manner, so as not to touch the sacred object. Now does nTr allude to the stick or to the cloth (there’s a word nTr for a type of tissue) ? Is nTr the stick wrapped in the cloth ? > Now, you must remember that DJER was the son of 'A - HA" where "A" is man, male and 'HA" Libyan Moon God.< Djer was probably the son, and the first or second successor of Aha (according to the Annal Stone, there may have been a short interregnum between the two). But you read Aha’s name as A-HA, decomposing it into two parts, whereas in Egyptian it’s just one word, aHA, “the Fighter”. In the same manner somebody who speaks Flemish could divide your name into Hel-een or Hel-ene, “H e l l One”, and although you’re a h e l l of a lady :-) I don’t think this is allowed. If the Egyptians had wanted to write the name as a(w)-HA (and again I must insist that your transcription distinguish between a and A), “dragoman of the god Ha”, they could have easily done so. Besides, I don’t know the Coptic pronunciation of aHA, which may have sounded different from what we expect. > No meaningless coincidences here< Well, some of the data you use seem to result from coincidences, IMHO. But it’s still captivating discussing these things with you ! JD | ||
| Helene Hagan (206.170.217.138) |
JD: Indeed, some of the data I use does result from coincidences, "meaningful" coincidences, as opposed to "meaningless" coincidences. HE-LE- NA (H-L-N) does not have two "LL"s, as for instance "Hellene" signifying "Greek". Being a very ancient name, in existence long before the formation of the Anglo-Saxon word you use to refer to it, your analogy is grotesque, out of place, and does not fit the nature of our exchanges. It's like a childish bad joke ....sorry....you really should not have fallen into such silly mode... For your information: Etymology of name HELENE: OBSCURE ORIGINE,pre-Greek, EITHER early goddess of vegetation (helene) so Firebrand, Torch Bearer (Halene). | ||
| J.D. Degreef (213.177.158.119) |
Helene, I apologize if I upset you, which wasn't my intention at all. But the grotesque thing I did with your name was meant to draw your attention on what you're doing to Egyptian words. Net-djer isn't netjer and A-HA isn't aHA ! Although worded differently, the first proposition could be acceptable : "I wonder whether the distant origins of the word nTr, "deity", couldn't be the fusion of the two Amazigh words net and djer, representing the female and male powers of a Libyan divinity such as Neith, who has a distinctly androgynous nature". IMHO the second proposition, aHA = a(w)-HA, certainly isn't. JD | ||
| Helene Hagan (206.170.217.88) |
OK - However, I did not invent "Net-djer," no more than I invented the locality of "Ta-djer-Nit" spelled that way by the linguists who constituted the list I found on the Aures site. As for "Aha" I found it spelled that way too and since the prefix "A" is definitely a masculine marker, and there was an archaic Desert God Ha, it was not a difficult step to "A-Ha" - I did find your joke somewhat strange, since you could have just as easily used another word than my own name to make your point. All the more that I have the highest regard for you erudition and your input on this forum. I thought it was a little bit out of character.... Heh | ||
| J.D. Degreef (213.177.133.62) |
Helene, The prank was destined to get your attention, and it did, although not in the way I hoped : can one analyze words such as the Horus aHA's name mixing two different languages that aren't closely related (Berber a / A ? and AE HA) ? Can one try to find the etymology of the AE nTr by combining two words from a language (Berber) that again isn't closely related ? Although as I said in the latter case you could have a point, but it will be hard to prove. If net-djer wasn't your idea, you should also have said so, or even better, quoted your source (I'm well placed to know that this isn't always possible, for lack of time). In any case, for all the AE words you're quoting, you should use an accepted transcription system (the classical one with diacritical marks, or the Manuel de Codage format), not a transcription in CAPITALS, which is sometimes found on fringy sites (except for quoted literature, where the name of authors is sometimes written in capitals), and which causes a loss of information (a isn't A). Using this would also allow you to avoid old-fashioned transcriptions such as "Zoser". For Berber words you should distinguish between aleph and ain : I suppose this is no problem for somebody speaking Arabic, inasfar as the A / a difference exists in Berber, of course. You should also check the Coptic for each AE word quoted, as you're really comparing two different things : spoken Berber words with written AE consonantal skeletons. You may then find that many of the word comparisons you make are wrong, but the quantitative loss will be compensated by a qualitative leap forward. In any case, I'm very interested in your work and am willing to help inasfar as it is within this amateur's capabilities and possibilities. JD | ||
| Helene Hagan (206.170.218.202) |
JD: We are in deep waters, and I will try to address the core of our monumental lack of communication in as few words as possible. I could , with a quick tongue in cheek also serve you with a joke, such as "Tifinagh" (Berber alphabet) is composed of two phonemes "Tifi" ("finding, discovery") and "nagh" (meaning "ours".) How's that for a cheap shot in Berber semantics? But alas, the task is not that simple. !. Communication, the goal of language, is far more than logical analysis and adherence to a series of signs. After all a certain Lampere wrote that "Language was music before it became algebra." When we face a new language,(dead or alive) we have to keep in mind the multi-dimensional difficulty of its decipherment, as litteral transcriptions can lead to monumental error. Like it or not, I am well aware of this problem at each step of enunciating a word in English which is not my primary language, let alone in the search for meanings in Egyptian which is a set of symbols practically open to all sorts of interpretations. 2. Your vast knowledge of Egyptian must be primarily funded on systems of transcription which are external to the language, by force, and the underlying value system which are for all us an unknown, and a topic of debate. So let us examine your persistence to refer me to an Alef or an Ain. These are meaningless items when it comes to Libyco-Berber, Tamasheq, our Tifinagh alphabet, and all Berber writing, which do not have either, the first being an Hebrew letter, the second, an Arabic letter. Our alphabet has no relevance to these two languages. and by the way, you seem to go under the assumption that Tamazirt is a spoken language only, and not a written one. We have treatises dating to the 11th century. 3. The archaic pre-roman, Libyco-Berber has been deciphered with the help of our Tifinagh Alphabet, and yielded the identity in both of 22 consonants out of 24. Both have only consonants, and no vowels. Our Berber language has consonants, and no vowels. The only exception to that is that in Tamasheq (Saharan) Tifinagh alphabet, there is a final a rendered as a vertical trait. 4. The present-day research and tentative findings by a variety of scholars have involved the totality of the present corpus of bi-lingual Punic-Libyc inscriptions of 1125 inscriptions throughout Berber land. We have been able to determine two linguistic branches, the oriental (Libya, Tunisia, and the Aures Mountains) and occidental (Moroccan Tachlhit) which is considered more primitive, less influenced by Phoeniciens, Greeks and Romans, and offers thirten more letters in its alphabet. 5. That much for signs and symbols, a basic tool to start our investigation. Note, however, that you come to the task equipped with an "external" system, perhaps completed by a number of conventional symbols. and we have tried to approach the same task with a basic system "internal" to North Africa, complemented by a living symbolic system. there is a noteable difference between 'conventional" symbols and "living symbols." 6. On one hand, we have the monosemy of logical premises and scientific data, on the other the addition of the living understanding of the polysemic nature of a natural language which engages the knowledge of speakers in a group of people with common understandings. (hence, the inside Berber joke "Tifinagh: "Our" - "Discovery") 7. There are phenomena of transfer, and grammatical transformations of consonants which are unknown to the linguists who have deciphered Egyptian. I explain a couple of those in my book with the assistance of a prominent linguist, Dr. Mohammed Chafiq, Member of the Royal Academy of Morocco, soon to be the Executive Director of the newly appointed Royal Amazigh Institute of Morocco (2002); Dr. Hassan Ouzzate, Dean of English Studies, and specialist of the Tachelhit Berber language of Morocco, University of Ibn-Uzor, Agadir, Morocco; and Professor Tufiq Mostefaoui, astro-physicist, and symbolic etymologist, a Kabyle of Algeria who furnished Kabyle corresponding information (since you asked me for references.) Though I relied on published material, quoted in my book, I was guided through nuances of meanings by these three formidable scholars on a daily basis, and I will quote you below some important linguistic information concerning such transformations. 8. Consonants in these related languages, and that includes references to period of Ramses III of Egypt, where the influence of Libyan language on pronunciation of certain terms is evident. Amazigh (sing) Imazighen (plural) also spelled Imuhaq, Imushag, Imashaq, Imuzagh. (Note here: the "Im-user" of precedent e-mails could as well be spelled "Am-uzer," etc.. and be comprehensible to a vast group of speakers.) Other example: (same source) word: Ahaqqar (sing) ihaqqaren (plural) also spelled: agaywar (sing) igaywaren (plural) agharraghu (sing) igharrughen (plural_ aghaleg (sing) ighalgiwan (plural) Notice the corresponding consonants "h" "q" and "gh" in Berber language. Notice that "A-haq-ar" can appear as "a-ga-y-war"(two diphtongs or semi-vowels "y" and "w" ) or even "a-gha-l-eg" as "q" and "gh" are equivalent, and "l" and "r" are interchangeable, etc. All are acceptable. The same phenomenon of transformation can be traced for the designation of "Mesh-wesh" (from Mer-wer) people in Egypt, with transformation of "gh" to "sh" and "z." (The "mazices" ou "maziques" evident to Greeks and Romans, that is the Libyans/Imazighen of our amazigh culture.) We can also look at words such Egyptian words as "Ha-mashen" House of birthgiving, and a variety of other terms evaluated in my book, as being directly related to Amazigh terminology and word formation. 9. Finally, let me give you an exemple of this type of approach to language, which cannot tolerate a piece by piece approach to unrelated lexical elements, isolated, autonomous phonemes, but keep in mind the composite nature of language as communication of symbolic meanings: a. A common phenomenon to Berber languages is that of "annexation," which changes the initial "a" into a "w" (diphtong vocoid) to indicate a state of being appropriated, made part of : the word "aghrum" and the term "taadut n wghrum" (a loaf of bread) b. let us go now consider the expression "aghrum n tbaghra," where "aghrum" is bread " n" is "of" and "t-baghra" (female crow) is feminine of "bagher" (male crow) ; literally translated , it would render "bread of the female crow." (without annexation!!!) Now, what do you make of this term??? How would you interpret this exact translation of sounds???? Where in nature do you find anything corresponding to bread of the female crow that does not really mean of the female crow? c. The meaning of this expression is a specific variety of a poisonous mushroom. Here we have: - A domain: vegetal - A category: plant - A species: mushroom - "argusel" is the proper word for "mushroom" in the everyday language. - A variety of this species, only understood by those who are intimately cognisant of the language, for one knows that the binary reference of a-ghrum (masc prefix) joined with a feminine connotation t-(baghra) immediately evokes a form of taboo. This coincidence is recognized immediately by all Berber speakers regardless of their origins or localities... what it means is watch out, do not handle, i.e. poisonous.... On the same mode of symbolic understanding of terms, there is a beneficial medicinal plant with healing properties, and that is called "the wing of the bee." Ifer n tzizwa" or "zuawa" for short. Feminine, no ambiguity here, the feminine bee alone tells you something. But you have to be part of a universe of polysemic symbolic understanding to get the reason for that word.... Since you saw appropriate to ask me to follow some rules, I felt it was essential to indicate to you that those rules were different that the rules applied to the work I am doing, because your rules of accepted transcriptions have led to possible misunderstandings, "logical errors" so to speak. Where is the truth: is it occidental logico-pragmatic premises, or is the truth lodged in semantics that only symbolic undertanding can illuminate? I'll let you judge for yourself, as the core of the problem of the linguist is like a pyramid with three (or more) unknown ridges. x - natural referents or evidence. y - logico-mathematical operations, formal dimension of morphology, and syntax. z - psycho-social and internal dimensions of any language, phonology, and symbolic aspects of the work. As I have a full agenda in front of me, and tons of information to process on a topic of research (akin to the bees,) I salute you, JD., as I am leaving this Forum. Feel free to contact me through my personal e-mail if you wish to respond or communicate at any time. Most cordially, Heh | ||
| Alan Jaworski (170.142.235.21) |
To Helene, Thank you for the time and knowledge which you have shared. You are a beautiful soul. good journies, nefer-ka | ||
| J.D. Degreef (213.177.158.15) |
Hello Helene, I’m saddened by your decision to stop this conversation, and even more by your feeling about “our monumental lack of communication”. >When we face a new language, (dead or alive) we have to keep in mind the multi-dimensional difficulty of its decipherment, as literal transcriptions can lead to monumental error.< I’m well aware of this. I’ve done some work on the Pyramid Texts, and the direct translations aren’t very helpful. One always has to wonder : why is this word used now, why does this idea follow the preceding one ? What’s the link between the two ? In Egyptian, what you get is not what you see. For example, an ostrich is mentioned, and after careful scrutiny this is because an object decorated with ostrich feathers is used during the ceremonial action accompanied by the recitation of PTs. Are the feathers decorative or just meaning “ceremonial” or “divine” ? Or was there a link of the ceremony or the object with an Ostrich-deity originally ? So I’m trying to penetrate “the underlying value system which [is] for all [of] us an unknown, and a topic of debate”. In the case of aleph / ain (both Hebrew letters also !), these exist in Semitic languages and Egyptian. The fact that they don’t exist in Libyco-Berber etc. is interesting and something I didn’t know. As they don’t exist in classical Greek either, could this link Libyco-Berber with Creta and Greece (don’t know whether the two Linear scripts have them) ? So if they don’t exist in Tamazigh you obviously can’t provide them. But when transcribing Egyptian words, I think you must. When comparing written Libyco-Berber (etc.) with Egyptian, it’s better to quote the words as they’re written (consonantal skeletons), providing the vowels if these are known (through Tamazigh for Libyco-Berber / tifinagh, through Coptic for AE). Don’t forget that an Egyptian word which you’d have rendered as AHA in your initial postings, could in fact be aha, ahA, AhA, Aha ; aHa, aHA, AHA, AHa ; and even axa etc., aXa, etc. (8 to 24 different words !). And if you compare these written words with spoken ones, as you did for nTr and net-djer, then the situation becomes inextricably complex. The phonetic transformations in the Berber languages are totally new to me, and the equivalence Mesh-wesh / Imazighen is very interesting ! But again, you quote an Egyptian word “Ha-mashen”, supposedly meaning “House of giving birth”, and this doesn’t ring a bell, because you don’t use the generally adopted transcription systems. So I can only speculate that by “Ha” you mean Hw.t, “castle”, “mansion”, “domain”, which may sometimes have been pronounced HA(t), as shown by the name of the goddess Hw.t-Hrw, Hathôr in Coptic (but the present name of the city of Diospolis Parva, Hu, ancient Hw.t sxm xpr-kA-ra, shows that Hw.t was at other times pronounced Hu). As to “mashen”, what is it ? I know the root msj in words like “birth”, ”to give birth”, but maSn or mASn I never saw and the word isn’t in the Beinlich Word List or FAULKNER’s Dict Middle Eg. So all I can do is to interpret your “Ha-mashen” as Hw.t n ms(.wt?), “Mansion of Giving Birth”, but I wouldn’t have had to do all this work of interpretation if you had provided a normalized transcription in the first place. And my interpretation is probably wrong. I don’t want to criticize you for the sake of criticizing, and I don’t enjoy doing it, but if an amateur such as I can see these problems with your work, then it risks being thrashed by professionals, for matters of appearance (your renderings tend to show that you haven’t used recent Egyptological publications), even if the new information you’re bringing is important and fascinating. >I felt it was essential to indicate to you that those rules were different tha[n] the rules applied to the work I am doing, because your rules of accepted transcriptions have led to possible misunderstandings, "logical errors" so to speak.< You can always explain the symbolic meanings, as you did with the “bread of the she-crow”, but only after you’ve given the “objective” data, i.e. transcriptions according to recognized conventions. And distinguishing between written and spoken words. Remember the example of “anoobish” : maybe it makes a difference to know that the word is an English version of *anubish, or that the word is pronounced *ano-o-bish. The second example would be more remote from the Egyptian jnp or jnpw, pronounced anoup in Coptic and anoubis in Greek (where the final –s is a Greek ending which has to be removed, and this yields *anupi or *anup as the Egyptian word heard by the Greeks). anup would be rather remote from *ano-o-bish, if this is indeed the Siwa pronunciation. Hence the need for you to clear this up. JD | ||
| sianreed (62.7.89.241) |
Hi I am a novice just starting out taking an interest in this wondeful man Ankhenaten. I have been to Egypt 4 times and whilst on honeymoon in July dragged my husband to the Louvre to see the Egyptian collection , but especially to see some of the Ankhenaten collection (which is not that big) on display. One question I am interested in is what disease if any you think that he had or did not have to give him that kind of figure? Was it just the egyptian art forming in ways that had not been formed before and becoming more natural? Any theories? Next trip to egypt in march. thank you Nefertari | ||
| J.D. Degreef (213.177.133.64) |
Nefertari, Some people think Akhenaten suffered from Froehlich or Marfan disease, but the whole family seems to have had a similar body structure with large hips and an elongated skull. BTW Marfan disease is what Abraham LINCOLN suffered from, if I remember well. He didn't look like Akhenaten ! Some sites on Akhenaten (not Ankhenaten) : http://www.heptune.com/Marfans.html http://exn.ca/egypt/egyptstories.cfm?Special=rulers http://www.nunki.net/PerRenput/Reaction/Akhenaten.html http://www.cmi.k12.il.us/~beuschlo/book.html http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_24647.html http://www.egyptrevealed.com/020801-tuthip.shtml http://www.smh.com.au/news/0008/05/text/world20.html http://www.osirica.com/aten/marfan/marfan.htm JD | ||
| Ronlyons (24.199.141.69) |
I always thought that his strange appearance in the stellas, etc. wasn't because of a disease, or necessarily a co-regency or anything, it just struck me that he was probably perceived as different from his predecessors because of his religious beliefs that he imposed on the entire country. | ||
| SIANREED (213.120.97.184) |
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HIM AND NEFERTITI? FOR ME I THINK THERE WAS A TRUE KIND OF LOVE CONSIDERING THE NATURE OF THE RELATIONSHIP AND FOR ME THE ARMANA ART DISPLAYS THIS.IT HAS A SPECIAL QUALITY ABOUT IT THAT DIFFERS FROM OTHER ART ( I KNOW THIS IS DOWN TO THE NEW ATEN RELIGION ) BUT IT HAS AN EXTRA QUALITY ABOUT IT THAT SYMBOLIZES FOR ME,A NEW WAY OF EGYPT. THIS WHOLE PERIOD IN EGYPT FOR ME IS OF GREAT INTEREST AND IT'S FAMILY CONNECTIONS. HAS ANYONE ANY INFO ON EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE NOTION THAT TUTANKAMUN WAS THEIR SON? SOME BOOKS QUOTE THIS WITHOUT QUESTION AND OTHERS HINT AT THE NOTION BUT WITHOUT A DEFINATE TONE. | ||
| Ronlyons (24.199.141.69) |
I like to believe that Tutankhamen had Akhenaton reburied in KV55, but that's the only connection i'm aware of, and that's certainly not even in stone, we'll probably never know if they were a family. | ||
| James M. Vance (4.3.192.28) |
SIANREED Welcome to the Amarna quagmire! You will find a multitude of theories here about everyone who was even remotly associated with this period. Have an idea that's "way out there"? You'll probably find it already expressed in this discussion. To me, part of the fun and excitement in our discussion group is hearing all the far out theories that abound about the Amarna royal family. | ||
| Rick (24.25.208.10) |
Having been to the Pharohs of the Sun exhibit in Los Angeles, I examined all of the statues of Akhenaten and his family that I could. The quality ranged from garbage to exquisite. All of the statues of Akhenaten looked like a normal male to me. One assertion is that the exaggerated style is simply a local influence and not an accurate representation of the king. | ||
| James M. Vance (4.3.192.28) |
What about the two huge colossi at the entrance to the exhibit? They most definately show Akhnaten as a deformed man--or perhaps it was just an example of artistic exageration. The statues shown were not seriously deformed, but there was a slight exageration of the skull particularly. The Stele, however, showed much exageration. It's important too, to realize that the later in the Amarna period a piece of art is from, the less exageration will be shown. | ||
| Rick (24.25.208.10) |
I didn't find the huge colossi to show much evidence of any deformity. And I studied them carefully for awhile. They were far from an artistic masterpiece, and nobody would confuse Akhenaten for Arnold Schwartzenegger (sp.) In addition to that the limestone looked like it was of an inferior and very porous quality and not really suitable for fine sculpture. Some of the smaller statues showed a much more normal Akhenaten IMO. But I've seen many, many people in my life that had SIMILAR (i.e. not Identical)features. IMHO Akhenaten's features fell well within the normal range of human appearances. The case for Marfan's, or Freulich's syndrome is inconclusive and unconvincining if you base it strictly on the artistic evidence. | ||
| george (63.149.20.69) |
James, You observation about the artistic exaggeration of the Akhenaten colossi makes a good point. The features on these colossal statues now appear extremely exaggerated because they are today viewed out of context. When in their original positions in the temple the viewer would be looking up at the faces from a low angle, so the artists sculpted the faces to give the proper perspective from this view. The Greeks later used the same effect in designing the columns of the Parthenon. James | ||
| Rick (24.25.208.10) |
James BTW what did you think about some of the life size statues of some of the other Amarna crew? I was astonished at the incredible detail, right down to the lines in their kilts! I stood there in awe of these sculptures wondering how the artisans did it with nothing but primitive hand tools. | ||
| James M. Vance (4.3.192.28) |
Yeah, me too! Did you look closely at the smaller statue identified as POSSIBLY Tutankhaton? The detail work was really amazing! All of the work was well worth seeing. | ||
| Rick (24.25.208.10) |
Yes, I examined it carefully and was astonished at the incredible detail. Right down to the fingernails on his hands. Though moving around to the back of the statue I noticed what appeared to be a female hand resting on Tuts/Smenkhare/Akhentens (I think I've seen this statue attributed to all three at one time or another.)back. Now, about twenty feet away from the statue in another case was that exquisite fragment of a woman's head, possibly Tiye's. Since both pieces are made out of the same yellow jasper I keep wondering if that little head was formerly part of the T/S/A statue and that the vandals (I hope their hearts got eaten! They deserve it for smashing up that masterpiece.) smashed it off. Again I wonder how they got the lips on that piece to such a high almost mirror-like finish. To me that's the real mystery of Amarna. | ||
| meela_isis (64.228.54.9) |
i think think the real mystery of amarna is where akhenaten and nefertiti r buried. i know they found that sarcoupgus at kv55 and they think it was a woman, possibly kiye, but forensics have examined the mummy more closly, they think it was a man in his later 30's early 40's and a very fragile build, and they have even said that they mummy might have had a deformity in his lifetime. i truly believe that is akhenaten. i truly would like to go to amarna and see the ancient ruins for myself, i would also like to see the pharaohs of the sun exibit. | ||
| Derren M.Horwitz (195.93.34.152) |
Dear ‘all’, I wonder if someone can tell me if there’s a consensus of opinion as to the age when Amenophis IV (Neferkheprure) became king; when married Nefertity, and her age? | ||
| nefertari (62.7.32.145) |
Hello I was reading about the simularities of Rameses II and Amenhotep III when it struck me that Amenhotep III started the idea of worshiping to one God Re-Harekety, or in the rule of Akhenaten the Aten. This change from worshiping the many Gods of Egpyt seems to have had a massive influence on Akhenaten and his dramatic change in religion. Can this dramatic change be soley devoted to him or can we say that his father started this change and he was merely influenced by this and continued with this idea which was not his sole idea but inherited from his father. I believe this was the case and he finished off what his father started but he took it too far and vastly changed Egypt's religion for the time that he reigned. WE can see from the Luxor Temple that his father built an open court yard wit columns to let the sun shine through to be worshiped Akhenaten did something simular in Amarna and built a simular temple there for his mother. Only this week after re-examining facts have these simularities come to fruition for me after reading vast amounts of literaturte on Akhenaten and going to Egypt on many occasions. What does anyone else think and can they give me any more information on this matter. Shukran nefertari | ||
| Rick (24.25.208.10) |
Nefertari-I've read variations on this theme many times. To me the major flaw in it is Amenhotep's name AMENhotep. Amen was clearly the god he identified with and wanted to please. Amenhotep's tomb was clearly traditional, he was portrayed with many other gods (there's a beautiful statue of him being "protected" by Sobek the crocodile god.). To me the evidence that Amenhotep was a budding monotheist whose son bought this idea to fruition is tenuous at best, absurd at worst. | ||
| Derren M.Horwitz (195.93.32.8) |
Dear Hanna & JD – I too am saddened by Helene leaving this forum. (I too am writing a complex book but find your insights extremely interesting.) I was very interested in your correspondence with each other. Perhaps JD would like to consider the following and give me his thoughts? Languages have a certain historic value in themselves. The relationship of Egyptian to the Semitic language implies, or seems to, a degree of intimate history that has been shared. In delving into this remote past, we find connections between the Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic(for those who might be reading this, I should mention that the Afro-Asiatic various languages contains Semetic/Egyptian/Berber/Cushite and Chadic, some used in different parts of north Africa to the present) language families. Research into connections between Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic continues, but it seems that no two scholars agree on specific details which might link these two language families. This does not detract from the potentially absorbing and historic repercussions that such research might produce. If you have any further thoughts I would be very interested in them, for when languages share common features they have either inherited them from a common origin, which would be extremely interesting to discover, or acquired them through borrowing under ‘phonetic law’. Any kind of linguistic alliance any historian must be very interested in, particularly any related language that might indicate evolving from a common stock. As alwys, best regards Derren. | ||
| Derren M.Horwitz (195.93.32.8) |
Dear JD may I mentioned this when you were replying to Helene :- In the case of aleph / ain (both Hebrew letters also !), these exist in Semitic languages and Egyptian. The fact that they don’t exist in Libyco-Berber etc. is interesting and something I didn’t know. As they don’t exist in classical Greek either, could this link Libyco-Berber with Creta and Greece (don’t know whether the two Linear scripts have them) Regarding Crete. Their native writing started with Cretean hieroglyphs around 1800 b.c.e. They have not been deciphered, but the next stage of this script is called Linear A and has been. The texts are written in one and the same Northwest Semitic language, the main language of Minoan Crete. Createan Linear B was used between fifteenth to twelfth centuries b.c.e which continued the ‘A’ script but in the Greek Language linking the ancient Near East to the Mycenaen Greek civilization. The Cypro-Minoan inscriptions from Enkomi on Cyprus are contemporary with Linear B but have not yet been deciphered. Later down to the third centuary b.c.e, Greek inscriptions on Cyprus were written not only in the familiar Greek alphabet but also in a development of the Minoan syllabary. I mention this in case it is of interest. As always my best regards Derren. | ||
| jd degreef (213.177.158.40) |
Derren, Thank you ! JD | ||
| bernhard grundl (193.27.50.73) |
hello Derren and JD, by the way i found two fine websites regadring the city of amarna. may be of interest not only for newcomers ! 3-d modells and more !! http://www.thearchitecturestore.co.uk/ http://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/Projects/Amarna/Model/model.htm best regards ! bernhard | ||
| Derren M. Horwitz New member Username: derren Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2002 Posted From: 195.93.49.10 |
Dear All Is there a known list of all those high officials surrounding Akhenaten at Amarna, and what happened to them? For example I believe this might be a list, perhaps not complete, or totally wrong? Parennefer -Royal Butler: Tutu - Chamberlain & Treasurer: Khay -Table scribe: Ranefer -Personal Charioteer: Ahmose -Kings steward, etc: Pentu - Chief physician:Nakht-Vizier: Huy - Treasurer: Apiya -Chief Steward assigned to Memphis: Ramose -Scribe of recruits: Mahu -Chief of Police:Neferkhepru-hir-sekheprer - Mayor of the city: Pa-aten-em-heb -construction: Maanekhowtef -Construction: Maya -General Was there another Ramose -General: Ay - Charioteer: Meryre -Priest: Meraya -Priest:Panehsi -sup;cattle:Tutu -Chief servitor of Aten: Pawah -High priest of the sun in Heliopis. Also was Haremhab an official at Amarna with Akhenaten? I would be very grateful, Best Derren | ||
| Rick Baudé Senior Member Username: rjb Post Number: 50 Registered: 09-2002 Posted From: 24.25.206.24 |
Not that I know of but your post has certainly taken a step towards that. I think there's a book called "Personal names in the Amarna letters" which I think has a list of the names of the people in the Amarna letters. | ||
| Derren M. Horwitz New member Username: derren Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2002 Posted From: 195.93.49.10 |
Dear Rick, Thank you for yuor reply. I shall now attempt to find the book you kindly mentioned. My best regards Derren | ||
| Su Bayfield New member Username: su_bayfield Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2002 Posted From: 62.64.236.191 |
Hi Derren Just to add a little to Rick's recommended book (probably your best source), there's also an interesting chapter on the Amarna tombs in 'Akhenaten' by Nicholas Reeves: Thames & Hudson, 2001. ISBN 0-500-05106-2. He lists 25 non-royal tombs at Amarna. Northern Tombs: Huya, Meryre (II), Ahmose, Meryre (I), Pentju, Panehesy,. Southern Tombs: Parennefer, Tutu, Mahu, Ipy, Ramose, Nakhtpaaten, Neferkheperuhersekheper, Maya, Suty, Sutau, Any, Paatenemheb, Ay. He also gives all their full titles (where known). It's interesting that none of them were finished and we don't know who was actually buried there (if anyone). A few of them also have tombs in Thebes and/or Saqqara too. Some writers suggest that Horemheb was actually the Paatenemheb who has a tomb at Amarna and changed his name later. There's no conclusive evidence however, but Paatenemheb's titles are similar to Horemheb's early titles in his Saqqara private tomb. Su www.egyptsites.co.uk |
