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Traces of Egypt on other continents

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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 12:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lately I've been wondering; If the AE's made it all the way to the America's and back, how come they only returned with tobacco and cocaine. But not tomatoes, potatoes, or maize?
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J.D. Degreef (213.177.133.64)
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 03:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Have you ever tried smoking tomatoes, potatoes or maize ?
A happy and pranky New Year to you Rick, and the other posters and the no doubt proud owner of this BB !
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o (200.151.18.23)
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 09:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I happen to be a peruvian who was twice in Machu Picchu and in Egypt.In fact hieroglyphs were found in Lambayeque,Chavin and jungle of San Martin with snake,eye of Ra and pyramids.Thor Heyerdhal proved to possibility of reed and payree ships crossed Atlantic Ocean.If you consider mummies in both places as well as heliolatry,operation of brain,priest who were kings as well,temples which were mock up of constelations(Nazca lines of spider was linked to Orion),copper which was golden using empiric electricity,worshipping animals,the idea of inmortality of soul,pyramids found in all Peru.Not to mention basis of pyramid of Teotihuacan in Mexico which is the same measure of Egypt and also their god which meant opening of the mouth rite,but with sacrifice,the importance of solstician time, the system of weaving which used 11 pieces exactly like Egypt, the cromossoms of cotton in Peru which belong to New and Old World,the linguistic link between hebrew,phoenician and even coptic and sumerian with quechua language of incas or even some cothes of the people of mochica at the north of Peru, gives me an idea what are we searching.There`s something about in Spanish
www.peruegipto.cjb.net
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Bern (63.149.20.24)
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

O,
Thank you. At last you have solved the mystery of the copper fittings on the "door" in the GP shaft.
It was a device to transmit and receive radiowave signals between Egypt and the pyramid builders in Mexico and South America to exchange ideas. Please start looking for the same kind of transmitter-receiver in the Peruvian and Mexican pyramids.
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Graham Oaten (210.49.169.21)
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oscar

How doid they transport 125 ton stones at Sacsayhuamán ?
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quickmind (146.145.36.41)
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 07:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

All,

I just noticed that many scientists seem to dismiss the idea of the Egyptians travelling to America as being almost impossible. However, the fact that people populated the Hawaiian Islands in prehistoric times attests to the fact that primitive man was quite capable of long sea journeys. As a matter of fact, there is much debate over how the first people actually got to the new world. Recent finds along the coast of North America have given rise to the possibility of Early Europeans arriving in America (before the vikings) from the sea. So this idea of people arriving in America by sea, not just overland via the bearing straits, is becoming less and less thought of as impossible.

If anyone has kept up with the American Archeology magazines like AncientAmerican, you may have seen pictures of Egyptian artifacts and other things they have found in North and South America. Unless they are frauds or fakes, I wonder why these finds, like the Olmec heads in South America, don't get more attention in the media and the scientific community.

http://www.ancientamerican.com/backissue.htm

Quickmind
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Ritva (212.246.17.130)
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Quickmind,

you are absolutely right about the amazing likeness in some points of the South American and Ancient Egyptian cultures. Also, there's no doubt that those ancients were capable of long journeys by sea, seen the quality of their boats (the Nagada boat representations always baffled me!).
Even so, the Ancient Egyptians were masters of recording things and therefore I believe that we should see traces of such voyages somewhere. Unless we see Punt situated on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean...?
True enough, sailing just along the Red Sea the Egyptians wouldn't have needed all that fleet (how big were the boats and how many of them?). Besides, they could have travelled by land all the way to Nubia and just crossed over the Red Sea by smaller boats.
Quickmind, you have me speechless here! Give me five reasons why Punt could be S.America, please.
:)
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george (63.149.20.189)
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 03:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Qickmind,
I will accept any three reasons--two--one?
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Graham Oaten (210.49.169.21)
Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One reason

Punt has not yet been positively identified, nor the "lands of the gods" Both could be outside of Africa, could be trading posts. We know some of the things that came back from Punt or rather, were collected along the way. How about India, Afghanistan, Indonesia to name a few. Then again it might have been Ethiopia, Somali or the Sudan.

Any more suggestions, Sth America ? nah !
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J.D. Degreef (213.177.133.59)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 02:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The products from Punt are all purely African, with one exception : myrrh and frankincense, which come from the Arabian peninsula. But crossing over to Arabia to get them wouldn't have been difficult.
Punt could be reached either by the Red Sea, or through Nubia, suggesting a location between the Upper Nile and the Red Sea.
Under the reign of Thutmosis III, Puntites came to Egypt with tribute, on mere rafts : this suggests that Punt wasn't in Indonesia nor in America !

JD
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Graham Oaten (210.49.169.21)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 04:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Frankincense and myrrh still grow in Northern Somalia. Ioan Lewis who writes extensively in the country reports that modern Somalis still like to think that the agents of Pharaoh visited the hills and harvested the plants. Could be some truth in the matter although judging by the value of the two plants in antiquity they could have been transported and cultivated almost anywhere in tropical Africa. So Northern Somalia as a source for Punt cannot be ruled out either. To get there the Egyptians would have had to sail well beyond the horn of Africa.
http://www.netnomad.com/lewis.html
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J.D. Degreef (213.177.133.230)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 04:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah, I didn't know these plant species grew in Somalia as well. Then all the products of Punt could have come from there ! Or, due to the displacement of the aridity belt since Antiquity, on the southernmost shores of the Red Sea ?

JD
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Graham Oaten (210.49.169.21)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 06:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Both sides of the Gulf of Aden, Yemini and Somalia share many plants species, the carob tree comes to mind, Ceratonia Siliqua. This also found its way into Egypt. Then there is the Arabian jasmine or sambac which is really a native shrub of India. It too was a favourite (Late during the XX dynasty) and probably well before. The importation of plants can tell us a good deal about who the Egyptian traded with. We cannot rule out that their needs compelled them to widely travelled either. But I agree Indonesia and India may have been a bit beyond their means.
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oscar roberts (200.217.3.114)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 09:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Inca married with their sisters the way Sumerians and Egyptians did.In Moche,north of Peru,some lords suffered from Marfan disease just like Amenophis IV transmited to his daughters.Both cultures use similar architecture techniques of cutting stones. It seems Machu Picchu itself is a representation of their gods crocodile,condor and a cougar on Wayna Picchu mountain.Huge monuments visble as statues with Masma indian procedure to let`em visible in a game of shadows and light at certain times of the year and hidden from ordinary people.In Marcahuasi,Lima,there`s a place like this with statues created in this way.Archeologist and antropologist Daniel Ruzo investigated the place 4000 meters above sea level.I climbed with his 60 years old son and took photos of egyptian goddess Taweret (crocodile-lioness-hippopotamus),a baboon unknown in South America, representation of egyptian god -Nile Hapi or Thot,and also the frog Heqt fecunded by sun in Egypt and also worshipped among Gauls, Brazil,Caldea,Assyria, in Marcahuasi also I have a photo of a sphinx,etc.This place is not very well known by most people.
Biologists from Oklahoma Univ discovered in 1963 epidermic cells of Egyptian princess Mene still had vital capacity...so was the case with peruvian mummies.
Pirua Manco perhaps was the inca whose name is related to Peru and not Biru river,the name is a reference to enlightment as well as the name pyramid in one out of many translations is somewhat related to sun or light.Pirua manco forbid the writings -as it is shown happening in Egypt in the film Stargate- thus QUIPUS were invented (ropes with knots).This sereved as memorials the same way Jewish priesthood garments in their clothes called TZIT TZIT.It`s a lie incas didn`t own scripture,it was banned, the scripture was called Runa Simis. Snake was worshipped in Mexico,Egypt and Peru. In asytronomy is known cicle called Pe-hanok in Egypt which could be translated House of Enoch. The aztec city in nahuatl language called the place T-Enoch-Titlan which means Enoch City,is a reference to Cain`s son and his age is related to calendar 365 days-years.Genesis 4 : 17-24.Interesting is Teotihuacan pyramid in Mexico is also calendar of 365 days.Filologist wonder if Cain-cain-cain can be an inverted homophonus of Inca-inca-inca.Ethiopian manuscripts have references to Enoch as being builder of Great Pyramid.Jewish accounts say AWAN was Cain`s sister-wife,they live in a paradise surrounded by 4 rivers.Is it a coincidence in quechua of incas the name of the empire was T-AWAN-TINSUYO meaning 4 SUYOS. In nahuatl language of aztecs number 4 is NAW I like an inversion of T-WANI used in Tawantinsuyo and Tiawanaco, Bolivia .
In mochica city Pacatnamu,Peru,there were at least 31 pyramids made of dry mud bricks. At this place some erudits found they wore semitic turbants as famous Señor de Sipan. Mexican believed in the return of white bearded men.Spaniards came in the predicted age, first day of 52 years cicle in the year 1519. The year of Enoch=365 was called Haab by mayas and the sacred calendar Tzolkin represented 260 days conceived as 2 gears getting back to the same point. Number 52 was the sacred number of winged snake and also WAS THE NUMBER OF EGYPTIAN THOT god of science and astronomy, probably exhiled from Egypt around 3100 BC. There are pyramids and mountains in Atlixco, the same height of Great Pyramid according to astronomer of xix century Jean Baptiste Biot, they were solar clocks. Figure of egyptian ank cross and beatle god is found in Mexico there. See:
jeanneatlixco@lycos.com
mariorat@elsitio.com
The very name Egypt comes from Greek Aegyptus but in their own language in Memfis was Hikuptah (temple of Ptah`s KA),even before was Khem (dark land) perhaps a reference to Ham-Cam in the Bible who was darker than his brothers Sem and Jafet. Why make a reference to Noah`s sons? Because antropologists and etnologists agree probably existed an amerindian proto-lenguage besides nostratic and denecaucasian and because these divisions of mankind and 3 divisions of languages were later on, but in the beginning Genesis 10: 25 and 11 : 1,2 we know about people wandering the Earth from the East to the west. Phoenician language of Biblos just simplified hieroglyph and cuneiform scripture. It`s a must encourage the study of black holes in language like :
maya (quiche) euskera,phoenician,hebrew,etrurian,sumerian,rongorongo,quechua,tupi-guarani,guanche,maori,temanegue,proto-greek to see similarities. Even chinese and Sumerian or acadic related to Ramsey math graphics which associates math and astronomy.I have a list already including name of lords and gods like Balaam,El,Malco-Manco,Ra,Uru. Also you can read Charles Berlitz books, he was diver,linguist and traveller.Lost Realms of Zecharia Sitchin, the work of toscan Natalia Tariffi who -in spite of descent from etrurian background, she wrote etrurian imported knowledge from incas.Maybe in an argentinian university you can find the work of priest fray Honorio Mossi who knew some of these enigmatic language. I will mention relation coptic -quechua here:
quechua(inca) coptic
anta homnt=copper
atoq bachor=fox
aysana olano=basket
ch`olqe chorchi=wrinkle
cholo chlol=people
churi chere=son,boy
illa ille=artificial light,jewel,bright
k`ayrapin kaire=belly,pancreas
kinuwa knaao=sheaf,shwafs
k`ayra krur=frog
kutuna chten=tunic,shirt,gown
onqoy thomko=ill,illness
punku borg=door,open
tarpuy sarpot=lotus,plant,seed

Even if we talk about ethnic heritage, we know Ramses II and Seti I were blonde and Spaniards conquerors in chronicis wrote about Colla`s wife of the inca, sometimes with green eyes!.There are subtitles in this discussions here. Even a survivor of Tutankamon`s curse, his name was Otto Neubert,german collegue of Carter, he believed the idea of blonde foreigners taught knowledge to egyptian.In spite of his ideas he was honored in Egypt and was an specialist. He wrote about strange celtic horned helmets shown in Egypt depictions or the pictures of Ramses II at Medinet Habu in northern european seas, also about the nordic sword with tongue shaped handle.His book is Gott in Goldenen Sargen Tut-Ench-Amun also explains black egyptians were maybe slaves during North Atlantic migrations. He thought phoenicians were relatives to Sumerians called kinahni originated in Caucasian montains were also vasco-basco is spoken in a dialect. He reminded the legend about egyptian blonde germanic queen. Also professor Breasted had the same ideas.
Blood type A unknown before Spanish came to inca`s land, was found in incas mummies.Japanese factor was rumored also. DNA link between KETS and ALTAIS in Asia with American indians were also discovered.There are references to the coming of sumerians,black brave people and other races to the center of Peru coming from the Andes,Brazil and the north of Peru by ships.Leyend like the coming from Ñaylamp to Peru are very much like the coming of egyptian ships the way Thor Heyerdahl talks about. Although neozeland Eric de Bisschop proved polinesian also could reach coast of Peru easily.
Weaving of Peru is very much like Sumerian.
Filologist in Brazil say the name has nothing to do with reddish brazil wood because in old portuguese was a name of brass like in hebrew BRZL is a reference to iron for which Brazil is well known. Irish myths also knew the land of happiness in Brazil 1000 years earlier.2 or 3 centuries before the discovery of Brazil, the name appears written with different graphic in maps. The name was probably a reference to axes made of iron provided by portuguese to cut ibirapitanga tree faster (15 minutes)than stone axes used by tupi-guarani. Brass in English is also a reference to metal.Check out the name in galic.In fact Kuchulain was Irish heroe and several authors think was the original name of feather-snake Kukulcan-Quetzalcoatl in Mexico.Solar disk and peruvian gods Ai-Apaec and Lanzon are similar to mexican calendar of aztecs and jaguar-god of Central America.
Paleo-antropologists now know there were several migratory waves since a sequence of genetic mutations -haplogroup m- was found in ethiopian,mongols,tibetans,hindus.
In 1975 Landsat satelite discovered hiden pyramids south-east of Peru and also in Gupira sierra, high Rio Negro (black river). Even in Nazca ruins of pyramids are present but are not investigated.Study of symbols like cross,ladders,svastic,dragon,lotus are also encouraged to compare.There is a Temple of the Dwarf in Uxmal,Yucatan,Mexico where elephant was adored as god Chaac Mol. Critics said it was a parrot or a tapir.Unbearable for the autorities to explain mayas and olmecas could see an inexistent animal in Centroamerica -unless we believe african or hindus transported the animal in ships- or even african or indian people came to America, they took off the toy of an elephant at Jalapa museum. But you can see the photo in subtitle about elephant in:
www.sitchin.com

About Sacsayhuaman the only time incas tried to put stones they failed and the stone called Piedra Cansada (Tired Stone)killed 20,000 men.They said it was built by gods.
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oscar roberts (200.217.3.114)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 09:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree 100% with C.J.Jong.
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well Oscar: Since you find dozens of similarities between the AE's and the new world, why don't you show some of the differences.

Since you jump all over the place with no logical pattern I'll do the same.

Mayan mythology and AE was completely different, just read a little bit of the Popol Vuh and the BOD.

The New world residents domesticated and ate potatoes, tomatoes, and corn.

The AE's wouldn't know a potato if it hit them in the head.
corn,

The AE's built their civilization next to the Nile river, one of the largest rivers in the world on a plateau. The Moche, Incas, and Aztecs built their empires in the mountains.

The Aztecs practiced non-voluntary ritual human sacrifice throughout their history. The AE's apparently practiced voluntary suicide in the first and second dynasty after that it was abandoned. Until I think the Saite dynasty.

The AE's had an extremely complex heiroglyphic system of writing. The Incas kept their records on knots. The AE's rolled their books up, the Aztecs and Mayas books were folded.

Now using your system of grabbing anything in the world, I just proved there was no connection at all between the New World and the AE.
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Ritva (212.246.17.130)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 03:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Oscar,
very informative :) You have a knack of compressing a lot of interesting things in a tiny space.

Rick,
in comparing mythologies you might get better results if you start with the other stories of the divinities, even with Popol Vuh :)
BoD, in my opinion is little different while describing the same thing basically, because of the Egyptian way of seeing things.
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ritva????? You lost me on that one.
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Ritva (212.246.17.130)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 04:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On which one?
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 04:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ritva-this one-in comparing mythologies you might get better results if you start with the other stories of the divinities, even with Popol Vuh
BoD, in my opinion is little different while describing the same thing basically, because of the Egyptian way of seeing things.
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Ritva (212.246.17.130)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rick,
the simpler stories of divinities, such as the Book of the Divine Cow, the Ramifications of Horus and Seth, the Osiris Cycle are written in less symbolic language than the BoD. Therefore a foot is a foot just as in Popol Vuh! The BoD is more compressed with knowledge and the symbolism sometimes in several layers and as the Egyptian symbolism is different from the S. American one, the similarities and likeness is not so evident. Evident being the key word, since the similarity is there.
Howzat?
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A little bit better, but when it comes to symbolism and spirituality I'm tone deaf and color blind so I might need some more help on this one. However, after reading the PT's they strike me as very literal and not very symbolic. I get the feeling that they were really convinced that they were going to launch the king to the stars via these prayers.

As far as the BOD goes, I've always been very questioning about that one. It's so pragmatic. i.e. How to change into a bird, how to make sure your heart doesn't testify against you, how to make a shawbti work for you...It's like "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Fooling the Gods and getting into the Undeworld."
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Beth (206.133.140.21)
Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 05:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Ritva,

Could you outline some of the similarities between AE religious texts and the Popol Vuh? And do you believe any such similarities to be evidence of contact between the AE and the Americas?

Beth
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Graham Oaten (210.49.169.21)
Posted on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 01:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rick

I must confess that I have gradually come to believe in the literal rather than the symbolic just as you have. You are obviously much more informed than I so can I ask you to clarify "launch the King to the stars" as opposed to "launch the King to the Sun" In the OK Re was the most important god so I automatically assumed that the King would join Re, not to be next to RE or take position among the imperishable ones but to be actually absorbed by Re.
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oscar roberts (200.188.183.207)
Posted on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 07:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rick, you´re right when you said a couple of things of differences.Civilizations don´t have to be equal.What I say is people traveled arround the world and influence was spread.Of course,they don't have to eat the same things because the land and the environment is different.We can't say all ther things I wrote above is just a simple coincidence unless we are a little blind in the mind.In fact Popul Vuh written in quiche mentions some things on creation very similar to Genesis chapter 1. Other things like transformation men in monkeys are different but these are local legends while we have to compare universal myths like Deluge. It seems in Mesoamerica the legends of creation are quite different and that is explained because usually they start AFTER DELUGE. That show us civilization from the Old World came later to America.If someone talked here about contamination of coca, that's a mistake of confusing the inhalation of white dust of cocaine with bitting bitter coca leaves mixed with saliva to produce a similar effect I know the difference since I'm peruvian and I experimented both.In fact I was also in Egypt and talked with egyptologists besides reading a lot of both cultures. I mean,if language link,heliolatry,mummies,similar priesthood-kingdom,semitic turbants,marrying with sisters,pyramids,mock up temples related to constelations, similar ships,worshipping of animals,etc, and all written above is just beyond math probability what else do you want? Culture aspect is important not if books were written in babana leaves -as ALSO HAPPENED IN PERU- codex,or payrees. In fact Incas started to use knots after Pirua Ayar Manco prohibited the use of other RUNA SIMIS.An english man, William Glynns studying 30 years in Peru discovered recently quechua was designed with figures representing some consonants and also numbers like Hebrew.Perhaps in the future I can write here the similarities between hebrew, sumerian and quechua as I did with coptic.Although I don't think would be enough for you. As a peruvian I was forzed to admit the incas didn't learn this knowledge but imported from somewhere. I didn't believe this at first because of pride and nonsense og the glory of the past.I already read the Popul Vuh but I don't have here in Brazil to give you a fast answer. Your answer is valid and deserves a proper study.I also said here there was found in Lambayeque and in San Martin jungle of Peru as well as in Mexico, egyptian hieroglyphs.If I have your adress I will send you by mail.Enough is to say archeologist Gean Savoy was expelled from the country because of their investigations!
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oscar roberts (200.188.183.207)
Posted on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 07:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rick,I forgot to say Egyptian didn't build an empire on mountains because Egypt belongs to a desert place. The only time they use was specific location of Valley of the Kings. Did you realize the place is like a natural pyramid? I mean, if a mexican pyramid Teotihuacan has the same basis math, if the pyramid-mountains in Oxilco has the same height 146 meters, if smaller pyramid in Teotihuacan is placed upon a higher plato just like it happens with smaller egyptian pyramids at Gizah, you would say this is no important or what kind of explanation you give? Coincidence!
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oscar roberts (200.188.183.207)
Posted on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 07:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To Jaquarman:The candelabro in Paracas is a strange place indeed.Some authors think there's a link here with the god of thunder in Tauro constellation.Spanish found some ropes with devices tied to them.Some guess it served also as a sismograph.No strange if we know all devices created by chinese people!
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Graham-This is why I think that the king was launched into the stars. "...I am a living one of Sothis..the two enneads have cleansed themselves in Ursa Major." or "Hail to you Ostrich whis is on the bank of the 'winding waterway' ". The 'winding waterway' shows up over and over in the PT's and is either considered the milky way or the ecliptic. Here's a real long one on the 'winding waterway' Utterance 359 "Horus has cried out because of his eye, seth has cried out becuase of his testicles, and there leaps up the eye of horus who had fallen on yonder side of the Winding waterway, so that it may protect itself from seth. Thoth saw it on yonder side of the winding waterway when the eye of horus leapt up on yonder side when the eye of horus leapt on the younder side of the winding waterway and landed on the wing of thoth. O you gods who cross over on the wing of thothto younder side of the winding waterway to the eastern side of the sky in order to dispute with seth about the eye of horus. I will cross with you upon the wing of thoth to younder side of the winding waterway, to the eastern side of the sky, and I will dipsute with Seth about this eye of horus." Now there's a lot of action here and it all takes place in the sky. Body parts are tossed from one side of the winding waterway to the other. That's why I think it's the milky way and not the ecliptic. Stars crossing the milky way would have been easily noted. Sections like this have convinced me that the PT's are in fact astronomical texts, and that what we're reading is the various rising and settings of stars that can be identified with the various body parts.

As far as being absorbed by Re. I can find no evidence of this at all. In fact all of the AE's views of the afterlife argue against it. The AE's wanted to preserve their individuality, ushabati's were there to do the work, Stela's begged passerby's to leave food and water or at least a prayer for the deceased, tomb paintings show the owner partying while naked girls played instruments and tables loaded with food. The last thing they wanted was to be absorbed and vanish from the universe.
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Helene Hagan (206.170.217.110)
Posted on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Graham et al: Upon return from a successful but extraordinarily taxing trip, demanding still much time from me in days to come, I have just checked-in at EF. I wish I could write much more, but it will have to be brief. I hope to post some new info under another string on how to read Egyptian from information communicated through a recently published book... In reply to the above remarks, it is quite clear that the archaic base of worship of Egyptians, before the establishment of the special cult worship of "Ra" and "Ra-t" (feminine counterpart) in the Delta, a lunar and stellar cosmogony existed. All the beliefs, funerary rites, royal rites, etc.. are part of a large complex of beliefs based upon this archaic system which linked every Egyptian to the night sky, its stars (ancestors) and a principle of orientation in the universe which was a stellar one. The agricultural calendar was founded on it,(the year started with the appearance of the star Sothis on the horizon) - before the advent of a solar calendar, and even the social and administrative aspects of Egyptian lives - the nomes - had corresponding areas in the night sky and the stars.. The "divinities" of Thoth and his female counterpart Sheshat were the recorders of that knowledge of lunar and stellar time keeping and orientation, and as the transmitters of that knowledge "oversaw" counting, arithmetic, arts, medicine, etc... There was a category of Temple High Priests (repositors of highest knowledge) whose sole function was to monitor the night sky and the travel of stars...The sole intent and goal of each pious Egyptian was to rejoin ancestors/stars and become part of the August Stellar Congregation of Ancestors....If the sun meant "HEALTH" FOR THE LIVING (see the role of "Isis" - an earlier divinity in fact - as nurse to the Sun Ra), the night-sky was the hope of everlasting existence.... I do not have time to give more precise info right now. Perhaps after I have attended to my present obligations...Heh
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 09:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oscar-I think you missed the point I was trying to make. You can't look at things that only support your point of view, you have to look at things that also contradict your proposition for a very, very simple reason, if you don't you can be absolutely sure your CRITICS well. I pointed out a half a dozen things off the top of my head that contradicted your ideas.

So reviewing your ideas yes people have wandered around the world for tens of thousands of years, that's a fact. But HOW they did it is just as important as the fact that they did it. The evidence is overwhelming that the new world was populated when people wandered over the land bridge and populated the new world. Once the glaciers melted and the bridge vanished, that was the end for at least 10,000 years of human migration to the new world. The human populations that were here grew and evolved changed languages etc. etc. until that fateful day that Cortez saw the new world.

My point about potatoes, tomatoes, corn, was half in jest and half serious. Do you think the AE's would have brought enough food for a round trip? No they wouldn't, they would have loaded up on food on this side of the atlantic for the trip home. Before long potatoes, tomatoes, and corn would be stable crops in Egypt. The fact that they aren't is strong evidence that they never made the trip.

The "pyramids" have been discussed to death. The fact is that the pyramids in the New World were vastly different from pyramids in the old world. You asked the rhetorical question; Is this a coincidence, the answer is an emphatic YES.
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Graham Oaten (210.49.169.21)
Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rick and Helene I thankyou both.

So it is understandable that the Solar god is absent from the night-sky, that the records of Luna and stellar observation (from the oldest times) are in themselves reason to believe that everyone's final journey was calculated to a certain degree. There were goals to be achieved through prayer and a responsible attitude of living according to maat. The orientation of the night-sky therefore has to be recognised when reading the PT's. This appears to be the hard part, but the 'winding waterway' as Rick points out which is either the milky way or the ecliptic certainly seems to play a major role and interestingly enough also in the conflict we have come to understand as the 'contendings' of Horus and Seth.
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J.D. Degreef (213.177.133.84)
Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 02:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Helene,
I can't wait to see your clues as to the original character of the worship of celestial bodies ! It's true that even hunter-gatherers could worship stars, whereas corn symbolism, for example, cannot have appeared before the advent of agriculture !

Rick,
In the Pyramid Texts, the king is identified with a number of beings, stars, a storm... The structure of Old Kingdom pyramid rooms and passages attests to the importance of the northern sky : all pyramids open towards the north (with the Bent an interesting exception). In the burial room, the offering texts are on the N wall, so that somebody bringing these offerings would be facing north : apparently this is where the king was dwelling ! But this isn’t incompatible with the king spending eternal life in the bark of Re. While doing their stargazing (not by high-priests, but by lower officials, hour-priests wnwtj.w or when on duty jmj.w-wnw.t), the Egyptians saw the stars rise and set as if they were attached to a turning sphere, of which half forms a dome, the sky visible at a given moment. Now the sun for example rises between NE and SE (depending upon the season), goes up obliquely towards it culmination in the southern sky, then moves back down to its setting point (SW to NW). One can divide the complete celestial sphere into a north part and a south part : the separation between the two being a circle which goes from above our head –zenith-, to due east, to a point under the earth, exactly below our feet –nadir-, to due west). Then during the day, the sun mainly travels in the S sky, but at night it lies in the N sky, below the horizon. So the passages of Old Kingdom pyramids can also point to this lower N sky, not only to the stars and constellations around the celestial N pole.
As to the dead king fusing with the sun :
“Year 30, the 2d month of Akhet, day 7, this god (Amenemhat I) went to his Horizon, the King of Upper- and Lower Egypt Sehetepibre, he ascended to heaven, he joined the sun, his divine members fused with him who had conceived him.” (Adventures of Sinuhe, 12th dyn.)
On the Winding Waterway, just as an aside, this was also a real structure, leading to the entrance of the necropolis, the place Sais.

JD
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 04:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Graham_You're welcome.

J.D. Thanks for the info. Especially the "winding waterway" also being a building, however in the PT's it certainly seems that "winding waterway" is a celestial object. I have no strong feeling on it except, too me, it just seems logical that it would be the "milky way" I know it's just a coincidence but "milky way" and "winding waterway" seem to have a similar meaning or phrasing.

Your citation of the dead becoming one with the sun, is interesting, but it strikes me as somewhat exceptional. Again I have no strong feelings on it. But this sentiment seems to run through religions. The texts cover so many subjects and are so detailed at time that you can find just about anything in the BOD, PT's or Coffin Texts that will support just about any hypothesis that somebody could dream up. But to me the evidence supports the fact that the AE's wanted the party to continue from this world into the next one. Death appeared to be a trivial interuption in the banquet.
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Helene Hagan (206.170.217.192)
Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 12:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

JD: Again, pardon me the brevity of my remarks. I am swamped. Before my trip, I was working on a very interesting link between the original archaic Egyptian divinities said "Libyans" and what is on record on the cosmogony of Libya, "Libya" being a term used by the ancients to designate the entire region west of the Nile all the way to the Atlantic.

1. First, in order to navigate in the desert, one must do so by the stars. This knowledge is essential to our people. I was in New York with some Tuaregs of the Sahara desert for over a week,
and they kind of smiled about the fact that this fact might even be questionable. It seemed logical to them that night-time orientation is a primary essential knowledge to survival, a paramount one. The hitch-post of their universe is a star, and the names Kel Tamasheq give the stars are consonantly (roots) identical to some Egyptian names. The word Itri and Titri for star(s) for instance. The expression
"nTr" is phonetically related and part of the vocabulary of stellar navigation.

2. In the "Time of the Gods" preceding the dynastic era of Egypt, there was a Libyan (North African) Master Hunter - see history of the Titans, age preceding Greek Pantheon - who taught Libyans how to hunt with a domesticated dog. He was the first "man-god" to teach humanity how to make bee-hives to harvest domesticated honey as opposed to wild honey gathering, and also taught humanity how to make a press to obtain oil from the press, and how to make wine from the grapes. This man-god-teacher went by several names, one of them given by the Greeks was AGREOS. In other words, he invented agriculture.

3. All these "teachings" came, according from the Greeks, from the land of North Africa, with specific sites named which have been located in Tunisia, Algeria, and near the Atlas Mountains of Morocco.... by the way Agreos was the beloved son of the Goddess Nit, born on the banks of the Lake Tritonis of the same North African territory.

My Saharan friends also pointed to me the recent work of an American anthropologist who is relating the term "Amazon" to "Amazigh." I would have to concur with her work, as I came across this tie myself in identifying the origins of Nit, the domestication of animals, agriculture, apiculture, viticulture, and weavings, all originating from "Libya." The mother of the teacher of humanity, according to the Greek writings, was this very Nit who was herself from a region where "Amazons" distinguished themselves for their bravery. When the "sun" flew over that region, he remarked the extreme skill of a maiden who was able to subjugate a lion single-handedly, and the sun stopped long enough to conceive with her (Nit) the first Human-god and teacher of humanity, Agreos... We also learned that this maiden was the very Nit who was also called by the Greeks and the Egyptians "The Nurse." (Remember how "Isis" healed the sun after it was wounded? ) ETC.. ETC...

4. More than ever, your remark of the mediocrity of North African culture proves to be empty, and either based on a certain ignorance of basic fundamental data, or a definite intention to exclude any hypothesis which might endanger your own in relation to the Levant origin of Egyptian civilization.... Bearing in mind that we all still have much to learn, I find your hypothesis lacking in convincing arguments, whereas archeologically, culturally, and linguistically, the North African tie offers overwhelming evidence. Heh
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Chris Mental (62.30.0.2)
Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 02:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some very interesting pieces.

I agree the potatoes are a little puzzling (Hungry sailors?!)
I think the navigating abilities of ancient civilizations inparticular their use of the stars is underestimated. It also sounds like the Libyans could well have been an important link between other cultures for the AEs. The phoenician theories are also interesting.

Finally, I read that there were boats buried near the pyramids which would have been capable of ocean voyages. Could anyone confirm this as it was not from a scientific journal? If this is so could the symbolism of being buried near these great structures and away from any waterway not attach importance to the function of these vessels? (Therefore hinting of ocean voyages?)
Chris
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oscar roberts (200.151.82.56)
Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 08:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wrote about Peru mainly forgetting to mention discoveries from archeologist F.Kauffman-Doig very much like Egypt culture.Let`s talk about maya and aztec. Ra the egyptian god wears solar disk with snake Khut in the head of a falcon exactly like Quetzalcoatl,Gucumatz,Kukulcan,Xiuhtecuhtlc combines eagle with a snake.
I wanna remember the aztec game PATOLLI is similar to hindu and persian game PARCHESI. Turquish was used both in Mexico and Egypt with similar technique.
You mention Popul Vuh of the mayas but as a vague idea. That book talks about:
Dualist dicotomy between darkness and light which also happens in Egypt with Tipon Set in combat with Horus, this was the very essence of the rest of divinities. The same is explained by mayas. Quetzalcoatl was equivalent to Toth,science god. It is said in the Popul Vuh, the beginning of creation started with stillness and there was only ocean and darkness. Since Bible account og Genesis borrows from Sumerian and Egyptian account, it`s interesting to compare with Genesis 1:1,2. This emptiness or vacuum to be filled is called TOHU and BOHU in Hebrew and is a reference to things previous to Big Bang in black holes. Read Genesis and the Big Bang by Gerald Schroeder, teologist and phisic.The Popul Vuh also is very similar to John 1:1 in reference to the Verb,the Word or Logos which came to existence before the creation. Also there`s a division between light and darkness and is written in biblical terms :let there be done! The order of creation is look like Genesis.The account of the arrival of men was like genetic experience like mesopotamic accounts.Compare Zecaharia Sitchin`s book The Lost Realms with the book Mitologia Latinoamericana Aztecas,Mayas,Incas y Amazonas, by Geraldine Carter,Rachel Storm did the introduction. Read pag 57 in portuguese version.
The god which caused Maya`s Deluge is called Hurricane, please do compare with the chambers and waterfalls on the sky according to Genesis 7:11.
Vukub-Cakix was king of the giants(Genesis 6:4).Also Zipacna threw giants Hun-Apu and Xbalance up into the sky and they were converted into Pleyads,place known in Egypt.Compare with Job 9:8,9 , 26:7-13 as well as other references to a red dark planet 3 times more distant from Sun than Neptune or Pluto and 4 times bigger than the Earth if Zecharia is right. The very mention of Pleyads is something valueable.
While in Egypt the survival of KA and BA wasn`t guaranteed because there was a place like fire-lake, also the mayas believed in Xibalba, place to be feared and dead ones were its inhabitants.
Aztec pictoric scripture in 1500B.C, is similar to egyptian scripture on stone, Narmer king. Read Reveu de Synthese Historique by Amalia Hertz. Pictoric scripture in Egypt probably appeared there in 3100 B.C. and then after evoluted to hieroglyphs.
Internal structure of Teotihuacan pyramids belong to earlier date, 4000B.C. The same ANGLE 43,5 DEGREES was used by Zoser pharaoh in his pyramid. The SAME INFERIOR CORRIDOR next to the base. Already said the same measure at the basis ocurred in Sun Pyramid and Great Pyramid. There were no fax,interner,telephone,telegrams,sedex to transmit math concepts from one continent to other crossing Atlantic unless you say it`s coincidence or you are blind in the heart to accept migration really happened.
4 Atlants in Mexico are equivalent to 4 children of Horus in Egypt who held heavens in 4 corners. You can see clearly images of feathered snake even in Egypt, a Quetzalcoatl in Egypt.
The word CAN in nahuatl was equal to CANAAN in phoenician-hebrew. The mayas heroe VOTAN came from a place near Babylon according to Sitchin but I don`t think so. Mayan language describe NACHAN as the place of the snakes as in Hebrew, NAHASH is snake and the one whoknows the secret of copper.Copper in hebrew is almost an homophonous NEHOSHET.So,Moses did a snake made out of copper. Search about copper-62 properties emiting antimatter and how medicine goes fasterto the brain using devices made out of copper.
BALAAM character in Popul Vuh means the same and sounds the same as priest-magician in the Bible,Numbers chapter 22.Magician, by the way, wore leopard skin tunics while in Mexico wore jaguar skin.
Calendar with number 52 was also the number of Thot. Search egyptian myth called The Adventure of Satni-Khamois with the mummies.
Mutilation and resurrection of Osiris were annualy representated in Egypt.
24 tons Olmec statues representated black people, warriors with helmets, maybe from Gana or Nigeria.
Ivan van Sertima said in the book They Came Before Columbus black kings of Kush traded silver and bronze in 1800 B.C. and perhaps by accident they reached Central America while in the book Unexpected Faces in Ancient America , Alexandre von Wuthenau wrote about features of ethnic resemblance during Ramses III era,2000 B.C. All dates are relative, see my response about dating with Carbon 14 subtitle under the title Pyramids.
We know mayas wandered during 40 years like israelites until they reached Chichen Itza and a particular mountain very much like Sinai. In fact, Popul Vuh tells us they crossed very much like Moses and jews between a path in the middle of the sea.
The legend about princess Xquiq and the story about the tree is also very much like Eve in Eden.
The childhood of twins Hun-Apu and Xbalance is similar to Abel and Cain.
Tulan-zuiva was a place exactly like BABEL where languages spread out.
Linguistic things to investigate:
Nahuatl(aztec) Berbers,Sumerian,Egyptian
Atl atl water
mazatl mazatl horse,antilop
sipaktli sebek,sobek crocodile,alligator
Nahuatl Greek Turkish
teokalli teokalias dices game
teotl teo god
mixtli omichli cloud
tepetl tepe hill
Quiche(maya) Ancient Greek
thallac thalassa not solid,water
Quiche Vasco Quechua(inca)
gueton chiton tunic
tata aita taita father
I suggest, egyptian used coca to be stone wheteher in temples filled with hieroglyphs which gained live while enchanting of priests. I wonder the effects under pyramids or in ceremonial cenotafies tombs.
Maybe gotta read Carlos Castañeda, see the film Altered States, try Osho`s meditations and call me in the morning.
Jorg, I don`t think you gotta thank him to be patient with you. You`re the one who`s showing patience teaching him from 0 !
Regarding Paracas harbour: it appears in Piri Reis map. It was a place for ships which carried tin and bronze from Tiahuanaco to Old World. It was a sy7mbol of Sumerian god of Thunder Ishkur,Teshub known as Wiracocha by incas.
Rick,you just mention 4 or 5 things not a dozen. Differences are knowns but are little compared with similarities. Some egyptian pyramids were like ziguratts in the beginning.Let`s try not to talk with such truly knowledhe about melting waters or Ice Age because even the EXPERTS can`t fully explain why mamoots were frozen INMEDIATELY and not LITTLE BY LITTLE and a looooong period of time. In fact they are beginning to realize the environment in all Earth was altered. This is to be discussed somwhere else.If you ask me why there are no potatoes, tomatoes or other things in Egypt, that is a relevant question I agree with you. Even in our days we still import things because the land itself doesn`t allow all vegetables and fruits. I lived in Canada, I know. In fact there`s a book it says Egyptian people ate pop corn as well as inca did. I`m searching this for you.
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Donald P. Ryan (12.229.96.216)
Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 02:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just a few comments and ideas to lend to this discussion:

This question of the possibility of transoceanic contacts between peoples in ancient times is an area of specialty of mine. In fact, over the last few years, I have worked with Thor Heyerdahl on a variety of projects. He is, of course, known for his voyages on experimental watercraft. (By the way, I should mention that his Ra Expeditions were NOT to demonstrate that the ancient Egyptians visited the New World. Those voyages were designed to test the seaworthiness of an ancient sort of craft [the reed boat] that many different cultures seemed to have had in the past. This could also shed light on such things as contacts between Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley - perhaps even formative contacts. See my on-line article on the subject:
http://www.plu.edu/~ryandp/RAX.html

Many archaeologists today continue to maintain what I would call a "1492 mentality", that is, they have a very difficult time with the notion of culture contact and influence across the oceans, especially if it means Old World to New World interaction. Part of this has to do with the abuse of migration and diffusion theories in the 19th and early 20th century where all similarities were regularly explained by contact. Or that there was a singular source of civilization, for example Egypt (as proposed by G. Elliot Smith). Some of this has to do with the culturally controversial notion that people in the New World might have been "inspired to civilization" by more "advanced" cultures in the Old.
The subject is a very complicated one and most professional scholars will not even try to deal with it. For an excellent overview of the arguments, see: Eugene Fingerhut, (1994) "Explorers of Pre-Columbian America? The Diffusionist-Inventionist Controversy", Regina, Claremont. Some Mormon scholars, albeit operating with a vastly different agenda then myself, have done some excellent work on this topic. John Sorenson and Martin Raich have compiled a massive annotated bibliography that is an essential research tool on the subject: "Pre-Columbian Contact with the Americas: An Annotated Bibliography", (1996), Research Press, Provo.

Proving Old World contact with the New is a difficult thing. Many people viewed the old Norse Sagas a bunch of nonsense until a genuine Viking settlement was eventually located in Newfoundland (L'Anse aux Meadow.) Cultures may adopt, reject or modify new information. This makes it difficult to prove cultural contact. In the Americas, there are large numbers of "suspicious" objects and cultural features that suggest contact with Africa, Asia and perhaps even the Mediterranean, but it's probably going to take the discovery of more archaeologically indisputable sites to demonstrate any historical reality. (for example, a Roman shipwreck in Central America).
One such object has received a bit of attention recently: a small Roman head found in an archaeological excavation at a Mesoamerican temple site. See: Romeo Hristov and Santiago Genovés, "Mesoamerican evidence of Pre-Columbian transoceanic contacts." Ancient Mesoamerica 10 (1999):207-213.
Also see the article on the following web-site:
http://www.unm.edu/~rhristov/Romanhead.html

Keep this in mind: One thing that the Ra Expeditions did demonstrate is that contrary to popular belief, the oceans weren't necessarily scary and dangerous places for early seafarers in their "primitive" vessels. Heyerdahl, himself, felt a lot safer miles out at sea than close to the often trecherous coasts.

Now regarding the Egyptians in particular. I don't feel that during pharaonic times, at least, that they were particularly great seafarers. There is very little solid evidence to suggest that they ventured very often out of the confines of the western Mediterranean and occasionally the Red Sea coast. (It's possible, though, that some of the predynastic rock art and designs on pottery vessels could depict capable high-prowed reed boats during pre-pharaonic times.) If Old World visitors came to the New World, the pharaonic Egyptians would be on the bottom of my list. Carthaginians, Romans, Chinese are more plausible, but as yet unproved.

Concerning alleged Egyptian inscriptions in the Americas: Every one I have seen, including those presented by the late Prof. Barry Fell, appear to be either fake or imaginatively interpreted. Same thing with the pictures I have seen from Australia. (And as far as the infamous "Burrow's Cave" objects are concerned...in my opinion those are the most poorly carved hoaxes I have ever seen!)
The cocaine and tobacco? Still a mystery but most of the possibilities have been noted above, including that of extinct species from a more local source, more recent contamination, etc. On the other hand, unless we are allergic to the ocean, we can't outright dismiss other possibilities. Just remember this: people have been effectively using the oceans for thousands of years. A recently examined Homo erectus site in Indonesia indicates that early humans would have had the ability to cross a substantial stretch of water even 800,000 years ago. Humans entered Australia perhaps 50,000 years ago and they didn't walk there. And new thinking in the archaeological world is starting to strongly consider the possibility that the Americas were originally populated from Asia (and perhaps Europe as well) by people in boats, as opposed to the old Land Bridge theory.

- Donald P. Ryan, archaeologist/Egyptologist
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quickmind (146.145.36.41)
Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 07:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Donald, thank you, excellent post.

I kind of thought those burrows cave objects were probably hoaxes as well.

However, what do you think of the so-called mound cultures that are supposedly evident in early American pre-history. Is this some kind of proto-pyramid culture that vanished?
---
All

As far as AEs in America, I can only say that, IMO, some contact may have occurred, either by accident or on purpose, but not to the extent of prolonged and sustained voyages back and forth for trade or other purposes. I cannot see how the Egyptian civilization, which lasted 3,000 plus years, never ever tried to explore the outer reaches of their world, ie. long expeditions over the sea. We may not have found any evidence yet, but 3,000 years is a long time and there is a lot of evidence to sort through. It only took man about 10 years to get to the moon and that is a speck of time compared with 3,000.

Helene-
I can't wait to see your new theories.

quickmind
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oscar roberts (200.151.8.14)
Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 08:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rick, we can study a few things at the university and still don`t have criterium. You mentioned 5 things and said these were a dozen of proves or evidence.Yet if I write 20 about Egypt-Peru plus other 20 Mexico-Egypt those are innocent coincidences to you. It`s unbelievable lack of perspective. In science there are no imposibilities but improbabilities...accepted after been ridiculized. Even the fact I studied my own peruvian culture visiting twice Machu Picchu and the rest of the country, studying about Egypt and asking egyptologist while in Egypt, this could be subjective. Far more objective is even an egyptologist like John Anthony West admits links between Peru and Egypt.There are no coincidences like a chain of events, these kind of arguments we should expect froma darwinist and not a geneticist! We mustn`t turn blind eye on on linguistic study.I`ll put a couple of examples :
If I go to Japan we can follow the trade of some words adapted to English, AIZUKURIMU from ice cream. The same can be said about the words KANTERA from Portuguese CADEIRA(chair),botam from botäo(buttom),arigato from obrigado(thanks)bidro from vidro(glass)waca from vaca(cow) and so on. This is cos Portuguese sailors traded with Japan centuries ago. That`s historical fact. The same can be explained about American languages and others. The more filologist and linguist look for in the past,they face a huge wall like universal glosolalia spread out in a certain point. In the Canary islands, for instance,people had a whistle-language (besides guanche) something rarely seen...except in mazatecos in Mexico.
It`s superficial the argument all cultural things and languages have to be equal in minimum details. We know now japanese teenagers dye their hairs or dress in a way influenced by western civilization, but are we gonna be sure in the future? Your argument is naive. You say since egyptian didn`t have potatoes,tomatoes,chocolate, that`s evidence they were not visited. Even today with planes,ships available we don`t see ALL imported products everywhere. We rarely see black people walking down the streets of Argentina and Chile in spite of the fact there are a lot of negroes in Southamerica (Peru,Ecuador,Colombia,Venezuela,etc). Surely we can now explain this because of xenophobic reasons or enviromental conditions,etc. That doesn`t prove no negroe ever visited Argentina and Chile. We can talk about human beings or potatoe cromossoms.
Who would ever think, years ago, even Chinese people from Tarim river were visited by people who spoke Celtic and German, wearing clothes made of colourful wool and boots. DNA analysis and the shape of their skulls, show us they probably belong to Afganistan,Europe and India.Date;1600-3800 years old.
We look for INFLUENCES here, not things completely equal. Instead of saying to me: I`d like to check that egyptian scripture in Lambayeque, Peru, you just kept on denying everything. Have you realized few people surf here in this title so far? Everyone is following the trade of the same things over and over like cattle with a ciclope vision instead of 8000 omatidies in the eyes of a fly. It`s excellent you`re here anti-argumenting, is the beginning of an holistic mind. I was like you once, always doubting. Doing homework will change your attitude.
As I wrote before, the ortodoxian experts would say America was only inhabited by indians before Columbus. Yet monuments of black warriors wearing helmets have been there in all spectacular 24 tons each one. You can close your eyes of the heart but you ain`t gonna erase the stone from the place. Even if you burn the libraries and every single photograph or an atomic bomb vanishes all satelites and computers...the generations will remember.
This kind of attitude is always present. In one of subtitles here they denied me the satisfaction to answer. They just closed an item. In other about my response of dating pyramids -in the title pyramids- and history itself with carbon 14 and other methods, some people answer about socratic methods and scientific methods jut they refuse to answer with information worrying about something irrelevant like what my point of view would be!
If you wanna watch features of chinese people or semitic wearing turbants on peruvian pots you can read books or go to Nazca museum or go to Tiahuanaco. You wanna check about negroes before Columbus in Mexico is also available. These are not convenient coincidences beyond math probability. To know more about other indians besides incas:
chavin.perucultural.org.pe/vvirtual.shtml
Are we gonna say photographs of egyptian hieroglyphs and Anubis jackal are fake?:
www.ozemail.com.au/~classblu/egypt/article.htm
Don`t trust mormons evidence:
nowscape.com/mormon/papyrus/by_his_own_hand.htm
www.irr.org/met/pjs1.html
www.carm/lds/ldspapyri.htm
Astronomy link between Egypt and Mexico:
members.aol.com/SeeingBelieving/chapter13.html
members.aol.com/SeeingBelieving/chapter14.html
members.aol.com/Believe1111/SeeingBelieving/chapter15.html
Donald,thanks for your appropiate comments.Indeed, not only people from Peru could travel to Polinesia,other navegators have proved the oposite could be true also.We gotta think about the whole thing.Thor Heyerdahl and also the spanish Kitin Munoz were curious about seet potatoe in other regions of the world.
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Helene Hagan (206.170.217.69)
Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 09:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To Donald P. Ryan: Liked your posting very much. Thank you for it. I have formerly reviewed some of the data discussed in these postings and remain very skeptical as to the work of Van Sertima for instance which relies on a number of erroneous facts mixed with some correct ones; most of my contacts in US museums have done a lot to dispel any questions regarding certain "finds" reported by Fell and other... Do you know anything at all about the Jules Cauvet monumental thesis???? I have not been able to locate a copy in the US yet, though I am told one of them exists at Princeton. I would like to examine that work closely for myself, to see if there is any validity to his assertions....Heh
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 07:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oscar-We have documented voyages of the Egyptians to the land of Punt, I believe that some of the early "autobiographies" of early dynastic egypt chronicle voyages up and down the Nile river. And that's about it. Do you really think that the AE's who documented everything under the sun right down to the number of phalluses that they took after a battle would skip a journey to a strange new world loaded with extraordinary plants and animals and brilliant civilizations that rivaled their own? I don't think so.

Now returning, once again to tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco and corn. The fact that they aren't found anywhere in the old world BEFORE Columbus and his crowd made it to the new world and the fact that these same crops are found EVERYWHERE in the world centuries following Columbus's arrival argues strongly that if the AE's ever made it to the new world it was a one way suicide mission. In addition we also know from lingusitic evidence that there were at least three waves of migration into the New World. AFAIK there is nothing that even remotely suggests that these languages were derived from any of the ANE languages. Finally the fact that the New World was utterly devastated by diseases from the Old World, diseases BTW which the people in the ANE had developed some level of resistance too, shows almost beyond a shadow of a doubt there was NO meaningful contact between the Old world and the New world.
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Bern (63.149.20.101)
Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 09:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rick,
I believe you have made the important point to end this exercise in suppositions, perhaps and maybe that has been going on since Oct 1999. It is not important when a few sailors may have landed in the Americas if they lost it again. There are no lasting cultural interactions, no joining of the Old World and the New World until Columbus found it and didn't loose it.
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 01:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Bern.
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Donald P. Ryan (12.229.96.216)
Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 02:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bern wrote: "There are no lasting cultural interactions, no joining of the Old World and the New World until Columbus found it and didn't loose it."
As one who has studied this subject quite well with no particular agenda, I cannot with any certainty agree with such a conclusion. There are plenty of clues to suggest that humans were traversing the oceans and sharing culture. The process of culture sharing (adoption, rejection and modification), and the nature of the archaeological record makes it very difficult to prove. The attitude of "there are no lasting cultural interactions" is typical and tends to kill the discussion as most scholars seem to want to do. Does Bern know something that we all don't that would allow him to make such a sound pronouncement? Probably not. The subject is a minefield with no satisfying solution in sight. A brilliant archaeologist by the name of Alice Kehoe referred to it as "the taboo topic." As one of the handful of serious academicians who have dared to look into the subject [and isn't it curious that we have to be "bold" to do so?], I consider myself to be one of the more conservative, and believe that this absolutely fascinating and provocative topic can be addressed in a sober fashion, and I still consider it to be a very open question. (Read my comments in a post above, and the articles noted.)
respectfully,
Donald P. Ryan, archaeologist/Egyptologist
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oscar roberts (200.217.3.25)
Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 07:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Donald, when you surf here you`ll find these 2 guys Rick and Burn backing up each one of them with general statements and saying the rest is just coincidence. No matter if you write them the linguistic links or 50 different items they will continue to say it`s coincidence.Some of them say they are not experts in pyramids,etc, days after they become wiser than everybody else writing things in an average between 5 and 15 lines.Many things are yet hidden under the sands of Egypt. Few things were known about back pharaohs of Nubia a century ago. History is always changing. This kind of attitude condemn A.Wegener when he proposed the theory of moving continents just based on a single basis: Africa could match South America like pieces in a jigsaw puzzle. Now most geologists accept this as a fact.It doesn`t matter if I mention the name of egyptologist that share a possibility like you do, these guys who probably never step on Peru nor Egypt are skeptic and will continue to remain like this.Doesn`t matter to them if you explain egyptian already eat corn or peruvian incas had cotton with 13 little cromossoms and otherv 13 bigger in Huaca Prieta, 2347 BC. a genetic link between Old World and New World or the same 11 pieces system of weaving than the egyptian and all the things I already described.
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oscar roberts (200.217.3.25)
Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 07:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They say now there were at least 3 different waves of migration. They can say this NOW, but not too many years ago when the position was the only way was via Bering.They just set a final period like in an inquisition intimidation. It doesn`t work that way.
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Bern (63.149.20.29)
Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mr. Ryan,
This string concerns Egyptian travel to the Americas. It is obvious from the settlement of most of the islands of the Pacific Ocean that people had "transversed" the Pacific Ocean from east to west. There is not the same evidence that Egyptians transversed the Atlantic.
If we are going to accept suppositions, then for each piece of "evidence" supporting contact across the Atlantic by ancient middle eastern cultures there is an equal amount, and quality, of evidence that alien spacecraft landed in the Americas. So, on the subject on this string, are we dealing with facts or only speculation about random coincidence.
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Graham Oaten (210.49.169.21)
Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 09:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Donald
AFAIK an Egyptian presence in the Western Mediterranean is linked to cedar wood forests and the Levant. The recent Abydos find (Early dynastic) confirming that large ships (seagoing ?) were built with cedar wood planks entitles us to ask if similar ships would be capable of travelling the Mediterranean as deep sea vessels.
My particular investigation of comparable metrological measures for Egypt and both Britain and Brittany prompted me to ask whether the Pyramid builders ever conducted long sea voyages throughout the Mediterranean.
May I ask if there is now evidence for cultural interaction between Egypt and any lands whatsoever outside the Western parts of the Mediterranean.
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Donald P. Ryan (12.229.96.216)
Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bern wrote:

"This string concerns Egyptian travel to the Americas."

In my prior post, I invited you to read my comments in my initial message. Egypt is addressed. The invitation is extended again, and I encourage you to read the sources I listed including the web-links.

"It is obvious from the settlement of most of the islands of the Pacific Ocean that people had "transversed" the Pacific Ocean from east to west. There is not the same evidence that Egyptians transversed the Atlantic."

Again, read my first post. The Pacific is a completely different issue and, by the way, far more complicated than simple east to west migrations.

"If we are going to accept suppositions, then for each piece of "evidence" supporting contact across the Atlantic by ancient middle eastern cultures there is an equal amount, and quality, of evidence that alien spacecraft landed in the Americas."

Not so. Suppositions involving aliens requires a belief in the same. I don't maintain such a belief. I do know that people have capably maneuvered in the oceans for thousands of years. As I mentioned above, the issue of cultural "diffusion" is a very complex one. Check out the items I mentioned.

"So, on the subject on this string, are we dealing with facts or only speculation about random coincidence."

Perhaps neither. If there was some sort of magic way of ruling out or demonstrating "random coincidence", we would all be grateful. There are some good discussions in the scholary literature for building arguments of possible diffusion for given examples. I suggest you read the articles in Section One in Carroll Riley, et al, "Man Across the Sea: Problems of Pre-Columbian contacts." 1971, University of Texas Press.
Are there facts that conclusively prove that the Egyptians were in America? No. Are there facts that conclusively prove that the Egyptians had some sort of indirect contacts with the Americas? No, although some of the options in the cocaine-mummy controversy could be noted. Do I believe that the ancient Egyptians came to America? I tend not to believe such occurred. Do I believe that other groups probably did? Yes. Can I prove it conclusively at this time? No (except for the Vikings in Newfoundland) but I find there to be sufficient compelling "clues" to keep me interested.
You are welcome to keep your mind closed to the possibilities of this subject. I'm willing to keep the door open and I expect some interesting surprises in the years ahead.

http://my.athenet.net/~jlindsay/SkepticQuotes.html

Good luck!

Donald P. Ryan, archaeologist/Egyptologist

P.S. You seem to prefer the word "transverse" to my use of the word "traverse" in reference to crossing oceans. Look up both words. I stand by my usage.
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mr. Ryan Well I read the report and it simply confirmed my own scepticism. The head was found in 1933, a long time before meticulous expeditions were carried out. T.L. confirmed that it was in fact a roman head and not a forgery. Now let's just for laughs assume that the Roman's did in fact make a transatlantic voyage and for some strange reason this head wound up buried under three floors in a funeral context. Well what does it prove? Nothing. It shows that Bern's point still holds. There was no meaningful contact between the New World and the old world until 1492 when Columbus and company came, saw and conquered. At best it shows the Romans might have made a one way suicide mission too, perhaps getting blown off course landing in America, and probably getting sacrificed and the 'head' thrown in somebody's grave. But again consulting the infinitely better documented Roman period AFAIK there's absolutely no evidence to support the fact that the Romans made it to the new world and back. NONE that I'm aware of and I've read the authors themselves. And you can be absolutely sure that if they had made it there and back to Rome, with tales of gold, gold, and more gold, that they would have shown up with their army a thousand years ahead of Cortez. The closest to America that the Romans made it was when Julius Caesar smashed up his fleet trying to get to England and that was still a long way from the America, Central America and South America.

Your collection of witticisms where the sceptics were proven dead wrong is amusing and I've read many of them. However sceptics also have their victories. There has never been a perpetual motion machine made, nor will one be made, sceptics have proven over and over again that financial pyramid schemes are doomed to fail, how many "weeping madonna's" have been proven to be a fraud.

Oscar-Your reference to Wegner was almost comical. Indeed Wegner was ridiculed at first, but have you read his work? No, I didn't think so. But when you do read his work you'll find that he was thoroughly aware of physics, geography, and geology. He wasn't the first one to speculate about continental drift but he was the first one to put it on firm theoretical ground. It was only a matter of time until his theory was vindicated. On the other hand you have nothing more than a shopping list of similarities between the new world and the old world and that's it.

The case for meaningful and continued transatlantic voyages before columbus still had not been made. "Tantalizing clues" are no substitute for irrefutable facts.
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Donald P. Ryan (12.229.96.216)
Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rick writes:

"There was no meaningful contact between the New World and the old world until 1492 when Columbus and company came, saw and conquered."

Lend me your crystal ball, sir, it would save me a lot of work!

"At best it shows the Romans might have made a one way suicide mission too, perhaps getting blown off course landing in America, and probably getting sacrificed and the 'head' thrown in somebody's grave."

You offer far more speculative details than even I would be willing to conceed!

"But again consulting the infinitely better documented Roman period AFAIK there's absolutely no evidence to support the fact that the Romans made it to the new world and back."

You are correct...there is no evidence that they made it back. Does that rule out the possibilitiy that some may have arrived in the New World one way or another and perhaps had an effect of some kind (or not)?

"The case for meaningful and continued transatlantic voyages before columbus still had not been made."

As I implied above, it's possible that one-way, even accidental voyages, have the potential of having effects that leave evidence in the form of adapted and modified cultural traits which can be difficult to sort out. A very rough modern analogy might be that of the cargo cults that emerged in a few areas in the Pacific.

""Tantalizing clues" are no substitute for irrefutable facts."

And from where do "irrefutable facts" come? They don't all come jumping out into one's face waving a flag. Consider the Viking's in Vinland/North America. The idea was considered ridiculous until Helge and Anne Ingstad actually made the physical effort to explore the idea. "Tantalizing clues" are a start; an invitation to research. This may not be how you choose to spend your time, but I'm glad that there are a few serious folks willing to consider the possibilities. These scholars include: Prof.'s Stephen Jett (UC Davis), David Kelley (U. of Calgary) , Mary Ritchie Key (UC Irvine), Alice Kehoe (Marquette), Carl Johannessen (U. of Oregon), Clinton Edwards (U. of Wisconsin), Paul Tolstoy (U. de Montreal) and John Sorenson (BYU).

Also, take note of a research foundation with which I am affiliated:
www.ferco.org
which has gaven out 10's of thousands of dollars in grants over the last few years to legitimate scientists to explorer issues of the maritime past all over the world.

I'm not sure I have much more to add to this "discussion" without having to repeat myself again.

- Donald P. Ryan, archaeologist/Egyptologist
Pacific Lutheran University
www.plu.edu/~ryandp
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Bern (63.149.20.112)
Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mr Ryan,
I plead to not being the best typist in the world. I also agree with all your "no" observations. On the rest we will agree to disagree
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 12:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mr. Ryan:
I'm sorry if I ask for more than the evidence will support. You said that I was making outrageous speculations on the Roman head. Agreed. But the only reason I was speculating is because I think that its infinitely more likely that the Roman head was "planted" there and discovered. But I'm too polite to call something a hoax unless there's a lot of evidence to prove it. So, I'll leave the Roman head in the interesting but inconclusive category.

Moving onto tantalizing clues. I agree the vikings definitely hit america before Columbus, and they apparently withdrew never to return again. As such there is no way it could be considered as anything other than a dismal failure. The "cargo cults" are indeed proof, to me at least, of how difficult it is to change a culture. The "cargo cults" came and when they failed to deliver the goods they vanished. As fascinating as they are, they were ultimately another dead end.

To combine two statements "There was no meaningful contact between the New World and the old world until 1492 when Columbus and company came, saw and conquered."..."Does that rule out the possibilitiy that some may have arrived in the New World one way or another and perhaps had an effect of some kind (or not)?" Again another supposition. The overwhelming amount of evidence is that there was no contact with the Old World. Cultures in the new world rose and fell, empires were built and destroyed, trade routes were established and abandoned. I don't see how a couple of people blown off course from the old world could have any effect at all on these cultures, anymore than I could have an effect on the Chinese Nuclear program if somebody dropped me in the middle of Beijing.

As far as tantalizing clues go, I'm glad to see other researchers investigating this field. If they come up with anything conclusive, I'll be impressed. But from what I've seen those who propose pre-colombian contacts between the New World and the Old world have yet to offer any rigorous demonstration of this fact. It still remains nothing more than an interesting speculation held together with the thinnest of evidence and powered by high octane wishful thinking.

But I wish you the best of luck, and I'm extremely glad to see that you're funding expeditions to explore this subject. I'm sure that no matter what your researchers find it will add to the body of knowledge that we have about the New World and in that sense they will all be spectacular successes.
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Donald P. Ryan (12.229.96.216)
Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 01:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rick (and Bern, too). This is probably my last post on this matter. I think we've all expressed our views fairly well and there's not much more to be gained at this point.
Two last comments:
There still is at least one active cargo cult: Johnfrum in Vanuatu. Take a look at this:
http://enzo.gen.nz/jonfrum/index.htm
Some of the links on this page are also worthy viewing.

"I don't see how a couple of people blown off course from the old world could have any effect at all on these cultures, anymore than I could have an effect on the Chinese Nuclear program if somebody dropped me in the middle of Beijing."

Then again, if you have something interesting or useful to share, they just might have a listen.

Got to go. I'm off to London for things Egyptological and then to Oslo to hand out some more of that research money to further explore the possibilities of this and related subjects.

- Donald P. Ryan, archaeologist/Egyptologist
Pacific Lutheran University
www.plu.edu/~ryandp
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oscar roberts (200.151.58.119)
Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 08:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was somebody saying something about Popul Vuh?
Another random coincidences unbelievers incas,egyptians and sumerians practiced circumsition; the egyptian hieroglyph for the word NETERU is the same symbol in Sumeria and Peru.
An specialist in metalurgy,Erland Nordenkiold, reluctantly admited in Copper and Bronze Ages in South America the similarity of technique used in Old and New World in ancient times. In Bolivia handle of tools even had Sumerian goddess` head Ninti from Sinai mines!
Even prophet Ezequiel mentions TIN was taken by Tirian ships to produze bronze.
Since the expert who usually writes here has 1942 mind it`s needed to replied and synthesize a huge history really linked to Egypt from 1942 backwards:
A day previous to Columbus`discovery he said: TOMORROW we`ll be at destination. Thor Heyerdahl depended on Swedish geographer and painter Per Lilliestroem -who found the oldest map of Groenland in Tenerife,Spain- to discover Columbus served as a geographer in a Portuguese-Danish expedition in 1467 between Groenland and Canada. This was 25 years BEFORE Columbus parted from Palos in 1492, following viking routs. It`s not well known the fact Columbus lived years in viking`s land: Island.
Since he was really a jew, he confirmed his ideas of an spheric planet reading Esdras II and Isaiah 40:22 (probably in original hebrew), Joshua 10:12,13 was refering to observer`s point of view and was misunderstood by Catholicism. Columbus convinced even Catholic kings to the journey. He was based also in Toscanelli`s map.
Toscanelli based his ideas upon Greek philosophers:Hiparcus & Eudoxius, both of them lived in Minor Asia. So when Eudoxius drew a celestial sphere (related to a flat Earth?) in 4 B.C. their ATLAS INSPIRATION CAME FROM HITITE`S SOURCE, because there was found a couple of bull-men holding a globe in what egyptian hieroglyphs called: HATTI`s LAND. It`s not another funny and convenient coincidence even king of Hitities wore the symbol of winged disk.
The controversial map of turkish admiral Piri Reis (1513) was based upon maps used by Columbus. This map and others are hated by geologist because show South America coast and geological changes imposible to be explained -for them- in Holoceno`s time and not millions of years ago or 125,000 years ago. So in this issue we can`t overlook the importance of cartography either. Specially the maps of Piri Reis, Arantes Finius, Hadj Ahmed,Pizingi,Philippe Buache and Ptolomeus. Read Maps of Ancient Sea Kings Philadelphia 1964 and Path of the Pole N.York,1970 by Charles Hapgood.
I`m well aware of egyptian expedition to Punt because 99% of Egypt books show the photo of the fat queen. The ? is: Are you aware the great egyptian civilization also did journeys when Nubians ascended to the throne (1800 B.C.) or during Ramses III (2000 BC) or will you deny their capacities? During Ramses III various ethnic groups moved along phoenician coast towards Egypt, strange names like AKHIYAWA sound like japanese instead of Acheians, etc. Then the philistines estabished in Gaza after his victory on Libyans and Sea People. In his temple we see decorations of a tatooed Libyan, a Nubian, a bearded Syrian, a Shasu-bedouin with yellow headcloth and Hitite with round cap.A strong fleet was found under Necho`s II 600 BC. who also initiated the project to build a canal through Wadi Tumilat linking Nile and Red Sea. Perhaps he even circumnavigated Africa. During first Persian Period Memphis became a center of international transport.
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Brent Benjamin (12.4.169.51)
Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oscar, you are incorrect on your dates. Ramesses III does not date to 2000 BC. Try circa 1182 - 1151 B.C. 1800 B.C. did not mark the beginning of a new dynasty. The AE's were then in the midst of the 12th dynasty. I'm not sure where you get all of this, but (1) it has little relevance to Ancient Egypt, and (2) postings are only as good as the facts upon which they rely.
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Andrew (Guardian) (24.98.128.96)
Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oscar -
You're treading the line here. Statements like:

"It`s not well known the fact Columbus lived years in viking`s land: Island.
Since he was really a jew, he confirmed his ideas of an spheric planet reading Esdras II and Isaiah 40:22 (probably in original hebrew), Joshua 10:12,13 was refering to observer`s point of view and was misunderstood by Catholicism. Columbus convinced even Catholic kings to the journey. He was based also in Toscanelli`s map. "


will get you tossed off my board. Stick to the facts and do not mix in this silliness or I will ban your access to the board.

Your presence has become too adversarial and the attention that I have to give to your notes is beyond my present limited time to monitor the board. Since I am presently away studying for an important exam for another two weeks, I am unable to actively participate to my usual standard for moderation. Please do not make outrageous unsubstantiated statements and do not use the bible as a reference unless you can back it up with archaeological evidence.

And don't bother to flame me or criticize my decisions, because if you do I will not participate, I will only exercise my extended options as owner of the board.
Sincerely,
Andrew
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oscar roberts (200.188.180.242)
Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK.perhaps I should write those statements in the subtitle Ancient Egypt Bible Proofs under the title Miscellaneous.I didn't mention as a Bible proof just as a document.We're talking about relative time here.Since archeologist and egyptologist Donald proved to be controversial and decided to quit, probably I'll do the same. I just wanted to share some information available. Whoever wants to read more about this important issue:
Voyages of Great Pioneers by W.T Harlow. Regarding Christopher Columbus : Toscanelli,Colombo e Vespucci by Uzielli,G. Other references:
Antiquarian,Ethonogical and Other Researchers in New Granada,Equador,Peru and Chile by W.Ballaert;Historia Verdadera de la Conquista de la Nueva España from wittness, Bernal Diaz del Castillo;Narratives of the Discovery of America by Lawrence A.W. and Young; Ships as Evidence of the Migrations of Early Cultures,Smith G.E.;La Civilizacion Preínca y el Problema Sumerologico,C.Rice;Origin of Civilization in Central America and Mexico and New World Correlations byH.J Spinder.Also you can find some info at the University of California and Berkeley's Publications in American Archeology and Ethnology. Even in America there are magazines summaryzing this information accessed by:
www.ancientamerican.com/backissue.htm
If we wanna know about the difference between simple coincidences by randomic procedure perhaps would be good writing to real experts like Yoav Rosenberg, Doron Witzum and Eliyahu Rips at 21 Havaad Haleumi St, P.OB. 16031, Jerusalem 91160, Israel.Thanks for the patience!
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quickmind (146.145.36.41)
Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 03:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So here are some questions:

What is the current thinking on the massive Olmec heads in South America? Have they been positively linked with people from Africa? If not Africans then who and from where? What is the signifigance of such HUGE heads being constructed? Were they built all at once or over a period of many years? Who built them and why? Is it to honor an accidental journey to South America by ancient sea-farers or was there something more going on?

These are questions that I have only add to my belief that, if these are Africans depicted in this way, especially Africans from Ethiopia, then it was possible for Africans, and thereby people from other continents, to influence culture in South America in ancient times. Ethiopia is quite near to Egypt and therefore it would also show the possibility of navigation from that area to South America. Otherwise, it just shows that maybe another group from somewhere much closer had a lot of influence on the culture of the Olmecs. This evidence is definitely the exception and not the rule, because of the size of the heads, but there may be other artifacts yet to be found. Much of South America's ancient past has yet to be uncovered, so who knows what we may find? As for other forms of contact, the evidence is more scanty, AFAIK, and has been mainly suggested by using inderect evidence like similarity in words, cultural traits and textiles between South America and other ancient cultures. These similarities, no matter how intriguing, is probably not be enough to prove contact and influence, so it must be left for someone to find physical evidence.

Quickmind
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Helene Hagan (206.170.217.94)
Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 12:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Looking at Van Sertima's Plates of Illustrations of "negroid heads" in Mexico and south america, Plate 2 (a to i), Plate 3 (a to f, including the "negroid Egyptian head of Queen Tiy, mother of Tutankhamen") Plate 4 a and b , etc.. it strains the imagination to call these heads "negroid."

For anyone who has spent, as I have, a great deal of time in the interior of Mexico among native Indios, such features are not dissonant with the many traits found among them, and particularly when compared with figurines of the same period and the same group. I "do not see" the "negro" in those heads....

Ressemblances between Negro heads from present day Africa and some of the stone heads of Plate 27 and 28, may be misleading: something in the lips or the nose, etc... is not enough to convince any one that two heads (one contemporary African, the other a stone sculpture of several centuries ago) are of the same group of people. Anyone could produce such photo ressemblances between people of Nepal, say, and American Indians, or Alaskan Eskimos and Africans, etc... That is supposed to prove something???

All the ideas advanced by Van Sertima have resurfaced in strings on this site, one by one, all his arguments, and scholarship has proven again and again that there is no foundation to his assertions, just suppositions....Moreover, I can testify that when Van Sertima writes about "Berbers" for instance, his failure to distinguish them from Arabs shows lack of erudition - or even basic ethnological knowledge - in the matter. When he quotes Jules Cauvet, another instance, he has not read the thesis from the French Commandant (it is written in French), but simply repeats what he has picked up from other sources. Moreover, that thesis is also very controversial as it takes from a variety of languages (including Finnish) sounds that are similar, without consideration for their meaning, Not good enough...

I have read and reread his book, as I have also read Barry Fell book when it first was published. As much as I would like to link up to such theories, I cannot find any firm handle to hang on to in either.

Vague suppositions might tantalize the imagination but are not factual enough to demonstrate convincingly any of the hypotheses they raise in their books. It is in the details, not verifiable - attempts that have been made by a variety of scholars to verify them prove such details to be erroneous - that their assertions crumble like a card castle.


To call a stone head "negroid" because of heavy features in some cases, full lips in others, is not enough to demonstrate that they are indeed African heads....Again, facial features are extremely diversified among Mexican Indians of those cultures, without necessarily being "negroid."

The work of Van Sertima and Barry Fell has only a following among fringe groups of the United States, and reminds me of the work of Castenada, an anthropologist who was quoted by lots of people, and built a following when he published a series of books on shamanism. It was all fictitious, and that fact was known to scholars and American Indians alike, but the general public had no way to discern the true from the false and took it all as documented reality.
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Ritva (212.246.17.130)
Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,

well, once again the "truth" seems to be in the eye of the beholder. I personally would place those heads among early Vikings or Goths, even if I know the timing does not allow it. Still, "negroid" never entered my mind!
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 01:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Quickmind-If I could offer the purely anecdotal evidence, but being a resident of so. calif. with a large hispanic populalation I have seen many, many, many, men that looked like they could have been the model for the Olmec heads. Not one of them I might add was of Afrian origin. Again based on this purely non-empirical approach, that is as full of holes as a swiss cheese, I'll make the daring theory that the native central american indians carved the Olmec heads and then when their civilization collapsed, they merged into the general population. Occasionally we see the distant relatives of one of these people walking around the streets today. But once again, the fact that the AE's, the Olmecs, the Aztecs, the pueblo indians, the Maya's, the people of the Easter Islands were either too stupid, to unoriginal, or to whatever to conceive of and execute great projects without outside help is alive and well today.

The purpose of the giant heads, as I recall from a distant anthropology class, appears to have been boundary markers laying out the borders of the Olmec empire. The "football helmets" that they're wearing, I believe, were actually designed to fend off blows from war clubs. The message was clear to the people of that time: Cross the line and die.
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philip (200.195.110.79)
Posted on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 07:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My view is we very investigate also genetics rewinding history video-tape.I found very interesting the comments of our friend Donald Ryan -who wrote above- when consulting Mr.Frank Hung.The latter seems to be an expert and we can read explanations of him in his almost monologue about concepts of race in the issue Race in Ancient Egypt. In his explanation about Mexican Olmeca statues in La Venta though he mentions we can INTERPRETATE whether they belong to slaves africans -which I doubt `cos they are depicted wearing helmets- or even there are features of white man nicknamed Uncle Sam...he doesn`t respond why those statues are there in the first place since America was thought to be inhabited only by indians.
Mr.Oscar is wrong in the dates about Ramses III perhaps he wrote a generic date reference to 20th Century B.C., instead of 1170 B.C.But that`s because the references in some books like Unexpected Faces in Ancient America by Alexander von Wuthenau. He thought the black kushits from Nubia were Olmecs and the other book They Came Before Columbus, by Ivan van Sertima in reference to 18th Century B.C.,22nd Dynasty. This author is also mentioned in the discussion about race I wrote above with Frank Hung.The data was wrong because they measured the giants heads of Olmecas. This was an error also of Harvard University teacher,Leo Wiener. In spite of his mistakes DATING, his linguistic analysis is right, he proved Olmec language came from Mande in West Africa, the place between Niger and Congo. See the book Africa and the Discovery of America.
Columbus probably was a jew.The fact being Genovese doesn`t eliminate the possibility. Since Spanish and Portuguese created caravelas and isntruments of sailing,it`s important not to underestimate their documents. I asked Portuguese cartographer who also believes Columbus was jew, the son of Prince Fernando de Portugal, Don Duarte, brother of king Alfonso V and cousin of Don Joäo II. Though this is not the right place to discuss it!
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oscar roberts (200.195.110.79)
Posted on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 07:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I thank Andrew and Brent for correcting me. I did a silly slip of the tongue kind of mystake writing Ramses III date. I realize this kind of error puts in jeopardy the credibility in other statements. I humble accept that error but I`m rechecking and if somebody wants a back up on bibliography or more info I will try to answer. Regarding dates my opinion is we can`t trust too much in the procedures as I wrote in other places of discussion here but there are too many things to investigate and we can`t overlook. Regarding Olmecas some authors disagree they were black africans calling them from Melanesia or Australia because of the chin... too narrow and too small.Helen`s comment are right we can interpretate those heads in different point of view. But that`s precisely what we are talking about, heterogenetics rather than thinking only a group had to come via Bering bridge.So,my advice is why don`t go to the library and everyone take a good look at the photographs of the monuments. But this will continue to be just an item among many others.I will withdraw from this conversation for a while and let other people discuss pros and contra. It will be healthy IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE.
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quickmind (146.145.36.41)
Posted on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 01:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The only reason I asked the question is because I was wondering if there was any other research that has been done, serious research, into who the heads belonged to. I have no doubt that the heads could have been native to population and did not have to represent anyone from across the sea. About 10 years ago, I happened to walk by a book store where they had a book from the '70s containing color photos of people, places and things from within the Amazon jungle. It actually suprised me to see that the natives they pictured were quite brown in complexion and had the very same features as those found on the Olmec heads, as well as other artifacts found in various places in South America. My belief is that there were many darker skinned people in many areas of the world. North and South America is no different. Now whether we want to call dark brown people, with big lips and broad noses, as these natives were in the book I saw, negroid, well, that is up for debate. The question of which is very interesting, especially in South and North America. South America in particular, which has a graduated system of racial categories that differentiates between descendants of natives, Europeans and negroes. It also seems to assume that most dark skinned people are such because of African intermixing and does not account for the possibility of dark skin complexion PRIOR to the arrival of African slaves. After all, much of the Amazon is in the same latitude as equatorial Africa, and shares the same climate conditions, which would lead to darker skin pigmentation. But that is my opinion.

As for Mr. Van Sertima, he may have been going too far in suggesting that the origins of the olmec heads was somehow from other than the native populations. Rather than trying to point out that these statues were evidence of ancient Africans in America, it may have been better to do more research on the Olmecs and the native populations of South America, prior to European contact, to find out if the heads matched that of the local population. It would have been a more thorough investigation. And at least he may have been able to point out, then, that there were other populations in the world, who shared features similar to those of Africans and did great things in their respective parts of the world.


Quickmind
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Bill (205.188.200.164)
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 01:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This information might account for the ' Negroid' features found amongst American 'Indians'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_430000,
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philip (200.151.74.157)
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 08:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One thing is melanine and other is studying lips, chin, nose,etc. The question is not only about what we call now race but going into the past.Helen Haqan maybe blind if she thinks Olmec figures look like people from Nepal. You`re forgetting the rest of evidence like linguistic,etc.People here study features of the sphinx studying ears,chin,forehead,headcloth but when they surf here they say it is no important to analyze this. What kind of vision are we having here.None of the critics here already mentioned 16 olmec stones weigh 25 tons in first place and were found 100 km from the original place with baslat, through swamp and tropical jungle and they are not the only representation of black people, see Players of El Tajin. Do you see a pattern here when we know in the same places were found conic pyramids to watch solstice and equinox. See Papers on Olmec and Maya Archeology Number 13, University of California. To bild them they had to move 28000 cubic meters of land. They also had sculptures made of jade -even now they`re guessing where it comes from- and Smithsonian Institute found mirrors made of hematite and magnetite made for ritual purpose...a way they say to express they actually are not sure the purpose.The book Guia Ilustrado Mitologia Americana,Aztecas,Maias,Incas e Amazonia,pag 110, says the first stage of american civilization could be Chavin in Peru altogether with Olmecas in Gulf of Mexico and Zapotecas to the South of Mexico.What we call races maybe just some characteristics are stronger than other because isolation.People in Mexico and Peru are mostly indians, beardless men.If we go into the past maybe we`ll find SOMETIMES there was infiltration of another race. You write too much about Sertima but you`re not explaining about the very conquest of Central and South America because these people remembered the visit of other races, and we can still watch their monuments.It would be very difficult to find evidence in writing but we gotta trust in monuments and oral legends. Now we know white bearded men conquered America but if we couldn`t find memories we would doubt centaurs shooting fire from weapons were actually Spaniards riding horses and using pistols!
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Helene Hagan (206.170.217.222)
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 01:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Very interesting indeed. What your statements are pointing to is the industrious qualities and feats of ancient South Americans, a fact no one has denied, as far as I know.

We are on a Forum which explores Egypt and Egyptians, and alluding to white bearded men who invaded America is so remote from topics on this site that I wonder why it keeps popping up in relationship to Egypt???? Another individual even mentioned the jewishness of Columbus????? With his priests and their crosses, and a name like "Christofer" (which means Christ-bearing) Columbus must have been quite a fervent convert from judaism. But then, christianism did not emerge until 200 years after the death of the christ, who was a jewish "miracle worker" like hundreds of others. Christians were originally a sect of the jewish religion, and Christianity remains anchored in jewish tenets (Old and New Testaments are jewish books, the new with some Greek elements) therefore all christians espouse a form of jewish beliefs. I have always wondered, for instance, why people of color around the world have fallen for a white Moses, a white bearded Christ or a white Mohammed calling for submission to a desert god of Beduins.
These persistent phenomena of conversion to "foreign" gods have never ceased to amaze me, as an anthropologist very interested in matters of symbolism, beliefs, and traditions, and as a woman who has come to realize that "religions of the book" are men's institutions created around tall tales of male "creation." Men have not stopped to try to take away the power of life-giving from women for millennia, and they are still doing in laboratories, hoping to discover a miracle way not only to create a test tube baby but to grow one in an artificial chamber so that they can at last advance with credibility that they are the Creators of Life i.e. The God of Creation.

For one, I am not a bit interested in the arrival of white bearded men on the American continent as a topic of discussion on this forum. A close friend of mine, an American Indian comic has a stand-up act in which he speaks of Indians lining up on the shore of the Atlantic ocean and seeing the boats arriving: in amazement, they hit their foreheads with the palm of their hands, muttering: "We did not know we were Indians....We did not know we existed... Now, we are being discovered. We exist!!!!" The (mostly white/Euro) audiences never fail to roar with laughter. But then, when he is not clowning on the stage, he is a very militant member of the American Indian Movement of which I have been a member for twenty years. How does all this relate to Archaic Egypt? Egyptians are being discovered and re-discovered every twenty years, and repeatedly, white bearded men and beardless black men alike, all wish to claim some of its mystery and knowledge. Theories of origins abound. The hard painstaking work is done on the ground by archeologists, rock art experts, geologists, botanists, historians, linguists, ethnologists, and anthropologists, not to speak of the many amateur Egyptologists who have had a share in furthering understanding. It is far better to post a few elements of information with caution, and caveats,in my view, than to hit us over the head, again and again, with lousy scholarship that has been refuted many times here and elsewhere.My understanding is that this site serves young people in search of information...and far-fetched theories should therefore be labelled as such, so that there is no misunderstanding possible about the difference between corroborated "facts" and unproven "fantasies."

Heh
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quickmind (146.145.36.41)
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Really, it seems that part of the problem concerning these heads goes back to the state of Archaeolology generally in South America and Ethnoarchaeology more specifically. Until more good research is done to come up with a better picture of the cultures and people of South America before Columbus, we will always have people with mistaken impressions about ancient people in South America from other continents.

Such good research will also go a long way in helping to determine how the Americas were populated, where the people came from and who they were.

Quickmind.
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From what I can see there is no mystery of the heads. They were carved by Olmecs who were and are an indigineous people of central america. The so-called mystery is IMHO just another attempt by various groups of people to hijack the products of another culture for their own personal and political agendas.

As I've repeatedly posted on this and numerous strings, the underlying thesis that the pyramids in mexico, egypt, olme heads, and the incredible monuments of this and other countries and cultures is just a thinly veiled attempt to say that the indigenous people were too stupid, too lazy, or too _________(Fill in the blank.) to do it themselves. They "needed" help and now we should focus our efforts on "who" it was that gave them this "help".

The only mystery to me is why people in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary continue to insist that there's a "mystery".
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 11:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Helene-I found your comments on the western fascination with eastern religion extremely interesting. As far as religion and spirituality it seems that it is a one way intellectual street. Even before Christianity, the Isaic cults were all over Europe, Mithraism from persia I think made it all the way to Europe.
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Bill (64.12.105.157)
Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 11:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

These ' eastern' religions like Mithraism and the cult of Isis were introduced to Europe by the Romans but we shouldn't forget that the tribes of ancient Europe had a rich religious heritage long before the rise of Christianity or Rome. I wouldn't call religion intellectual since it's based on belief and faith, not knowledge. You usually learn religion at your elder's knee when you're least able to reason. Spirituality, however, is based on personal experience. The two are not the same.
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philip (200.151.59.35)
Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 07:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Helen you`re quite subjective.You`re not interested if african people or other races ever went to America -and that`s the main title here- but if you want us to believe white people came from Atlantis you see no objection somwhere else. See the place Plato & Ancient Egypt.
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Helene Hagan (206.170.217.207)
Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

?????????? The many fantasies about "Atlantis" are no more interesting to me than the proof of Africans in the jungles of South America. I leave such areas of investigation to others with great relish. I expressed my doubts about all of these allegations, quite subjectively of course, as all our statements, no matter how presented,in various garb, are subjective statements.

My perspective is open to what seems pertinent to the elaboration and elucidation of an Ancient Egyptian civilization. and even there, I am not at all involved in the tons of research on the Pyramids, and the dynastic age of the Pharaons. I have to acquaint myself with such material, but my laser beams only come into focus when data is relevant to pre-dynastic times, pre-historic times, "African neolithic" times, and "The Times of the Gods" that preceded Dynasties of Pharaons by eons.... Then, also, let me make it clear that I do not care a whit about the color of anyone's skin. We, Imazighen, honor all colors, and are the chameleons of Africa. It shows even in the mindset attributed to us: a few psychiatrists and psychologists working with Berbers have been astonished by our lack of ego consolidation, our mobility or faculty of switching in and out of "ego" boundaries,(reality and dream-world) and our fantastic adaptation to anything (a feat not possible for a "set" ego like the European one, for instance.) Firmly set or rigid egos are conducive, by the way, to intolerance and prejudice, racial or otherwise. Heh
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Brent Benjamin (12.4.169.51)
Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 07:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Helene, although I think I know what you meant, I must take exception to your last comments. As one of mixed European ancestry, mostly Irish, I will put my civil rights record in the courtroom up against anyone's - and, yes, there's ego in that statement. As for ego, some of us here were personally touched by a decidedly non-European example of intolerance and prejudice six months ago. I do not for a moment presume to fetter the good people of Islam or of Arabia (or any other geographic area) with the label of intolerance and prejudice simply because of the monstrous, egomaniacal barbarism of a few. You should not either. To do so is, decidedly, rigid. The last time I looked around the world, neither intolerance nor adaptability wore a geographic, ethnic, nationalistic, or gender-based banner.
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Helene Hagan (206.170.217.23)
Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 11:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did not say that anything was restricted to any place, anyone or any time. I don't understand your outburst, and the expression : "I will put my civil rights record in the courtroom." What does that mean? Who is infringing upon your civil rights???? Where do the Arabs and islamic people come into the discussion? you have me really, really, baffled.....Heh
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Helene Hagan (206.170.217.197)
Posted on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 01:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brent: I had to go back and read my message again to see if there was anything that could provoke your reproaches. I don't see anyone targeted. Somewhat tongue in cheek, I make some "psychological remarks about Imazighen." I conclude with a general pshychological statement - which happens to hold some validity. I have targeted no individual and no other group.

I noticed your phrase which might be a reference to what happened in the United States six months ago. On Sept 14, three days after the shock that rocked our land, I was the host of a half-hour televised program, taped in a Los Angeles studio. I would be more than happy to send you a copy of that program, as it is directly related to your comments about Islam and Islamic terrorism. I feel your indignation is not justified by my comments. I grew up among Islamic people. I have known the glint of a knife held over me by a crazed fanatic one, and the helping arm of another who saved my life. My dear grand-father, Mustapha, was a Moslem. He taught me some of the most important lessons of my childhood, and did so with kindness and a gentle soul. He also refused, under threat for his own life, to be intimidated by a group of fundamentalists into murder, and his reply was simply: "I dont need to murder to please Allah." I was 15 years old when he said that in our living room, and he was crying. He had to live in hiding the last few years of his old age.

In Algeria alone, more than 125,000 people have been savagely murdered in the last ten years by members of Afghan Arabs trained in camps in Afghanistan. Everyday, North African blood has been shed by machetes, as these murderers' preferred mode of murder is cutting heads, to instill great fear. As for Imazighen, it is a different sort of threat hanging over "Berbers," who are not Arabs: some are islamic, some pagans, some christian, some jewish. In North Africa, they have lived and still live everyday under threat of prison, exile or murder just to be able to speak their minds.

If you are referring to earlier comments I made on religion, I still stand by those comments, as they are the fruit of a long experience and acquaintance with mythology and anthropology. But such comments were directed at all forms of religion as power, and religious structures as power, an anthropological comment and not a personal vendetta or feeling against any individual or group..... If I have offended some religious individuals on this Forum, perhaps they and you will understand that, as a woman not unfamiliar with spiritual journeying, I believe in total freedom of beliefs. As an advocate for human rights, I would feel sad indeed if my conduct or words were construed as infringing upon anyone's civil rights, but I don't see, in your case, how on earth I have caused you to think that I was doing so......I would appreciate a clarification on this matter. I am leaving for a few days and will be back early next week. Heh
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Alan Jaworski (170.142.235.21)
Posted on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To Helene,
As you help us to change the world, you may sometimes feel alone. You are not alone. Relate to us the stories of connection between the Imazighen and AE. There are mind predators in these AE swamps, but you have battled worse. Just keep yours thoughts flowing onto the pages, and try to ignore the hecklers. i don't agree with everything you state but can reckonize a find mind.

good journies,nefer-ka
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oscar roberts (200.188.180.9)
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 09:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Helen, my question is mainly for you because your answering in good manners and I recognize an educated person. You're information is quite interesting here and in other places in this Forum.Do you agree with Otto Neubert -I think I mispelled the last name of Carter's collegue- ancient egyptians mingled their blood with other so called white races? The french author who did his 5 romance books about Ramses mentions blue eyes of princess and we know at least Ramses II and Seti I were blonde. But when I went to Egypt most of the people looked like Omar Shariff version. In Peru the same thing happened. Juan Polo de Ongardo, found the mummy of Wiracocha inca after few years of the Conquest, he was blonde almost white and married a sister Mama Runtu whiter than other women.Indians usually are beardless, but Wiracocha had a beard and this was also commentted by cronist Felipe Guaman Poma de Ayala in that century. Also was described like this by the brother of Spanish conqueror, Pizarro. Usually in my country the indians don't like to talk about this unless you ask a proper man or woman who really studies history.I think at least some "white people" (I write like this because the concept of race people have is wrong)of somewhere else could be part of elite. This could happen too long ago in Egypt and in other continents, of course I'm not sure.What's your point of view or Mr.Frank Hung if anybody finds him? Thanks.
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oscar roberts (200.188.180.9)
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 10:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the way, I hated the romance of the French guy. But I don't remember if he is egyptologist or historian, in any case if he invented a green-eyed woman of the court maybe because his profession he knows something about it.
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PeteH (24.154.98.11)
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From Rick,

"Oscar-We have documented voyages of the Egyptians to the land of Punt, I believe that some of the early "autobiographies" of early dynastic egypt chronicle voyages up and down the Nile river. And that's about it. Do you really think that the AE's who documented everything under the sun right down to the number of phalluses that they took after a battle would skip a journey to a strange new world loaded with extraordinary plants and animals and brilliant civilizations that rivaled their own? I think not."


If this is so, where are the documents that tell us how the pyramids were built? Or what the sphinx means? Or what happened to the Bent pyramid? Ect… They obviously didn't write everything down. There is another false supposition implied here, namely that all AE documents have been recovered. I think not. There are reasons people believe that voyages across the oceans happened earlier than previously thought. But they're being treated like nitwits because you claim they haven't got their facts straight. Well then stop using poor analogies and admit that modern archaeology does not have all of the answers. I don't think entertaining the idea that the AE's traveled across the Atlantic lunatic fringe. Boats were obviously well designed and important to them and they were skilled astronomers. This is not the same as claiming the pyramids were built by Martians.
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Beth (206.133.139.12)
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 02:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Pete,

Of coarse you are right, the AE could have crossed the Atlantic. But until evidence is found that proves this was so, it remains a supposition. I think Rick makes a good point, while the AE didn't document everything, such a journey would certainly have been recorded prominently (like the expidition to Punt). A sea voyage such as that would be news! Also, I think (just my opinion) that tomb and pyramid plans would have been closely kept, because of the treasures buried with the dead Pharaoh...

Beth
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PeteH (24.154.98.11)
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree that it is a supposition. What I don't agree with is being considered ignorant and uninformed for considering such a possibility. I also have posted on BB's dealing with physics and we have our own fringe element to deal with. But I can tell you that novices certainly aren't treated the way they are on this board by a few who "know it all".
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Beth (206.133.139.12)
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Pete,

Wow, I am sincerely sorry if my post gave you the impression I thought you were ignorant! I certainly don't. And I would be the last person on this board who thought they "knew it all", I am probably the least informed here. Perhaps I should just shut up, lol!

Beth
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Alan Jaworski (170.142.235.21)
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 06:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To All,
This string is pretty loonnngg...
Traces of Egypt on other Continents: The Topic.

Topic Scorecard:
-------------------------------------------------
In Egypt | other continents
-----------------------|--------------------------
pyramids x | x
-----------------------|--------------------------
mummies x | x
-----------------------|--------------------------
AE x | 0
-----------------------|--------------------------
olmec heads 0 | x
-----------------------|--------------------------
E. centrists x | x
-----------------------|--------------------------
A. centrists x | x
-----------------------|--------------------------
Incas 0 | x
-----------------------|--------------------------
A. Romans x | x
-----------------------|--------------------------
A. Greeks x | x
-----------------------|--------------------------
Nile R. x | 0
-----------------------|--------------------------
Tlaxtlan 0 | x
-----------------------|--------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

stay tuned for the exciting overtime.. on your AE internetradio dial.
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Brent Benjamin (12.4.169.51)
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 06:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Helene:
Forgive my delay in responding to your posting. As you may know, Dr. Hawass was in Cincinnati yesterday.

If I misread your March 13 posting above, I apologize. However, I have again read it and still have the same concerns I had when I first read it. My difficulty with your posting stems from my general agreement with your past postings.

After you state that you don't care about skin color and that the Imazighen have the fantastic ability to adapt to anything, you add ". . . (a feat not possible for a "set" ego like the European one, for instance.) Firmly set or rigid egos are conducive, by the way, to intolerance and prejudice, racial or otherwise." [Emphasis added.]

I'm not sure how you were defining tolerance or the ability to adapt, but this part of your posting seemed anything but. To the extent you are intending to make the blanket statement that people of European descent are unable to adapt, are intolerant and prejudicial, I stand by my posting. As one of European descent,not only do I not consider myself to have prejudicial hangups, racial or otherwise, I have devoted a part of my legal practice to civil rights issues - in other words, I put my money where my mouth is with respect to what I believe is right and what I believe is wrong. I am not alone.

As I said in my post, intolerance knows no geographical or ethnic master. In my experience and travels, which includes seeing many bad things, I have always found that there are good and bad people in all walks of life and no one group may claim or get credit for being the best or the worst. In that regard, I found the end of your post to be inaccurate, conclusory, and simplistic. I do not mean that in an unkind way, but that is what I felt.

As I stated in my posting, I thought I knew what you were trying to get at, but your ending seemed at odds with what I have come to expect from your other postings. It was not the part about the good qualities of the Imazighen, it was what followed. I trust I misunderstood what you intended.

Brent
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Helene Hagan (205.188.198.176)
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 10:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brent: I am away from my computer at home, but was able to log on. You did misread me and misunderstand my statement. From your explanation, it is clear that you did not take the statement I made as a psychological one: it is quite correct, psychologically, to speak of the formation of a strong ego among Europeans, and that is not the case for North African autochthonous people who have a much more permeable ego and the ability of going in out of dream state more easily. The same goes for many other groups of indigenous people whose personalities are not constructed on the model of the European one. In European societies, (but this is not solely restricted to European societies ) there is a cultural tendency to emphasize the building of a strong ego structure, and a de-emphasis on dream state, which are considered non-productive and non essential to social functioning. Education, the intellectual and logical processes emphasized in years of schooling, and other factors contribute to that.

There is nothing subjective about such remarks which happen to be psychological findings well known to psychological anthropologists. I have a degree in psychological anthropology and my area of specialization was in mind and myth.

You took personally - as an European - offense at being called prone to prejudice and intolerance. It is a fact, however, that civilizations with advanced technologies, and an emphasis on logic lose a great deal of the malleability and flexibility of personalities found among cultures which do not have the same child rearing or values put on logical processes. Essentially, this was the core of my statement. As for the Imazighen, it was a "self-inflicted" remark, so to speak, as there is an inside joke which comments about this attribution of adaptability and versality, "the chameleon phenomenon" among berbers, and some say that it is time to stop adapting to everything so rapidly, and time to define a real Amazigh identity and personality. I guess all of that was lost on you, from your last remarks..... All you seem to have retained is the
sting of belonging to a form of society which encourages intolerance and prejudice - French chauvinism is another form of such aspects of Cartesian minds - and you took umbrage for something which is not my personal opinion but is spelled out in a number of manuals which are required or suggested readings for a course such as "Introduction to Psychological Anthropology" (Undergraduate Course)
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Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Saturday, March 16, 2002 - 03:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To Peter H.

"Well then stop using poor analogies and admit that modern archaeology does not have all of the answers. I don't think entertaining the idea that the AE's traveled across the Atlantic lunatic fringe. Boats were obviously well designed and important to them and they were skilled astronomers. This is not the same as claiming the pyramids were built by Martians."

Okay I'll admit to the possibility that the AE's landed in the Americas and had an extensive trade going on with them, but only if you'll admit to the possibility that the Ancient chinese were the first to land on the moon and return safely. The facts speak for themselves they had solid booster rockets thousands of years before the west, a proven navigational system, and a system of mathematics that was quite adequate for the job of launching a rocket. On top of it they were also brilliant astronomers, and top notch metallurgists. So putting all these together it was just a trivial engineering project to scale it up to a moon launch. Can you prove I'm wrong?
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Brent Benjamin (24.196.181.112)
Posted on Saturday, March 16, 2002 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Helene, I do understand the reference point from whence you spoke. I'm glad you explained that a bit. I have had the college anthropology courses (physical and social) and do appreciate, but not entirely accept, the points you mentioned. That conversation is for another board and, I suspect, is something over which we could both enjoy many a mug of Ireland's finest. :)

From my perspective as an attorney, as well as my education, training and travels, I focus on individuals who have individual values, etc. I have learned to reject global assessments of people because of labels applied to them such as they are black, they are white, they are American, they are Japanese, they are Chinese, they are African, they are Christian, they are Moslem, etc. I have generally found that, in today's world, a good independent education (my bias favors liberal arts) can be a better determiner of individual values such as tolerance, adaptability and understanding, than where or how a person was born. And while I don't reject social values within groups as a whole, I have also found that fear and intolerance go hand-in-hand. I therefore see good and bad in all groups. These, of course, are better discussed off-board or in another forum. Thanks for explaining your posts. I appreciate it.

Regards,
Brent
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Helene Hagan (206.170.217.81)
Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brent: Indeed, indeed....A good face to face banter would right things immediately.... What is missed in written messages such as the ones posted here is often the intonation, the twinkle in the eyes, the smile shared by peope who converse in person, etc..

Rick: Just got back. The discussion on hieroglyphs, conventions, etc... seems like a tempest in a tea cup from the vantage point of having dealt with other real life issues in the last few days, away from the Forum...I really do not have much to add to the lively discussion or to reply to any of the comments - especially not those of J.D. who repeats himself interminably on his dislike of Budge. I prefer continuing my work quietly without bickering over ways to spell a word or two, or the many "rules and regulations" that some "experts" would like to impose on how to render forms of pronunciation that no one really knows for sure as such and such....In addition, the suggestion that Coptic might be the closest to archaic Egyptian is another proposed fiction ...the Greeks had already done their job in Egypt before the advent of Christianity, and Coptic is as close to ancient Egyptian as modern slang is to Old English...Hebrew, Arabic, Coptic, they have tried all avenues, and not one of them has thought "Berber." No wonder it is lonely sometimes, but that does not deter me one iota from the task at hand...

Rick: thanks for your good remarks on my book. There is a great deal more to add to the preliminary study that it represents, and some of it is really exciting..Heh
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oscar roberts (200.151.66.153)
Posted on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 07:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pete,I write similarities, whether they are poor or not you got to proof if they are coincidences.The ancient egyptians skipped mentioning about a pyramid 45 floors made of stone and sphinx, they could skip other things as well.But I already stopped, I asked a question to Helen about race and genetic.Of course, you didn`t respond either.
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oscar roberts (200.151.66.153)
Posted on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 07:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Any comments about the subtitle in this forum: Nordic Egypt? I mean I understand this can be a burden even to consider for some skeptic people here,people that in other times would be able to erase whatever they don`t like like in Ramses II time or chopping hands off like in Ramses III times. Two things are written there which I absolutley agree, egyptians received Sumerian influence and races were mingled in ancient times. We oughta know who were those people. Even now the experts keep on arguing who were hyckos REALLY, just to say an example. I wrote many things about Peru and Mexico that were similar to Egypt but I can say other people also visited Peru with similar coincidences, no matter you call them absurds without saying why they are absurds.Keep on waiting your answers about genetic, only know when they analyzed Peruvian mummies and egyptians they were trying to see if there was a vital element on tissues.When doctors examined peruvian mummies in Paracas they found they were dolicocefal nordic people, at least some of them.I don`t mind some people here try to deny but that`s strong evidence at least white people really came before Columbus.If anybody knows if actually some scientist have already examined genetic of mummies in Peru and Egypt to see if there was a link,I would like to know.
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oscar roberts (200.151.12.1)
Posted on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 08:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Someone here wrote about China, I hope he has a good idea what country was called by them as FUSANG or HINTERLAND.When vikings went to Canada or Terranova it was proved the map of Vinland was a fiasco but this couldn`t erase other evidences of nordic people arriving there.Until then critics said it was a stupid idea.I didn`t put coca on egyptians mummies trying to proof something.If in the future the similarities are proved wrong and nobody wrote about this here, except Helen giving her point of view about Olmeca`s heads looking like people from Nepal (!?) or Donald arguing egyptian writing in South america wasn`t that really, the rest are exchanging a no-no-no attitude or grabbing to randomic references.That`s the reason I simpley can`t keep on talking about similarities. Now I ASK the experts here to ANSWER.
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PeteH (24.154.98.11)
Posted on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 08:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rick,
I guess one good bad analogy deserves another. To answer your question, yes. Electricity. Now can we get back to discussing the topic at hand?


Beth,
Sorry, that wasn’t directed at you.

Oscar,
What question are you referring to?
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Helene Hagan (206.170.217.32)
Posted on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 11:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oscar: you are misquoting me. I wrote that if one used the criterion of feature ressemblance between images and people of different epochs and lands, one might take a look at a face, say, from Nepal (example) and find similarities with, say, the face of an American Indian,(example) etc...I did not compare a Nepal face to an Olmec Head, and what I wrote cannot be construed as my writing that people from Nepal ressemble Olmec Heads.... What a confusion you are creating by not reading correctly...Heh
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oscar roberts (200.151.79.205)
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 08:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On March 10 you wrote you don`t see any negroe features and added "anyone could produce photo resemblance between such people of Nepal,say,and American indians" so you wanted to diminish the argument in a way a paleontologist or archeologist wouldn`t do.What you said is those features are no important,that`s just an opinion not everyone agrees.Still none is answering something regarding genetics. After all,following the trails of mitocondrial ADN of a "black African Eve"is too generic.Regarding this issue please consider maybe all of us are affected trying to see -using your words- what we wanna see.For example look at other points of view in the subtitles Ancient Egypt and the Silk Road or Nordic Egypt? Look at the prejudice predisposition of some people EVEN BEFORE DISCUSSING the issue. Of course, we will know what`s gonna be their answer AFTER the discussion.In spite of this, I reckon you had some good arguments.Unfortunatley I can`t say the same about ridiculous list made by Alan, which is just an opinion like any other with absolutlely no information whatsoever. I won`t waste my time trying to examine Backster effect on them.
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felipewerneck (200.151.79.205)
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 08:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

....or double 21 crommosom in forefather!
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Alan Jaworski (170.142.235.21)
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To Oscar,
You fail to appreciate the passion for the AE that you have inspired in someone as insignificant as myself. Although i am not a professional stone carver, i have carved thousands of objects. Sometimes folks have told me that one of my pieces looks native american or ancient egyptian or native african, for instance. Some have large lips, or broad flat noses, plaited hair. Guess what, most of the time i don't plan it that way. My big secret is that the person/object was already there and i just scraped away the excess stone chips and dust. The scorecard is a form of levity, so that folks necessarily do not take themselves too seriously. Humor is sometimes the best medicine, and was it at your expense?, it is my ridiculous list. My point is that throughout this whole string, and other strings that try to make the factors of traces of AE to other continents, is that possibilities were made, probabilities seem remote. Maybe the Olmecs had lip inserts like their ear plugs?? Maybe the Olmec artists just scraped away the excess stone chips and dust and the finished product looked like the first American-Africans (pun). In this discussion of traces of Egypt in other continents, what is the conclusion?? Roman heads, Olmec heads, Vikings have nothing necessarily to do with Egypt. At least none of the preceding arguements augment those probabilities, although many things are possible.

You think that you know, that my ridiculous list incorporates disrespect to your well founded observance of possibilities, but your words explain so profoundly what my list omits as the futility of further exacerbation of that which you so vehemently propound.

i have wondered in the past cocerning possible connections of ancient societies. My opinion after studying the AE is that our environment creates us. Our planet is a living reasoning creature. Our planet is part of our environment.
The sun is also a part of our environs, and as such influences our growth. Thus that same sun and that same earth helped create the AE, native americans, A. romans, A. greeks, summerians, chinese, etc. , and there is your connection. The AE didn't have to go anywhere for the sun and earth to influence different continents in a similar way to how the AE environment produced them.

good journies,nefer-ka
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cristina (200.216.149.58)
Posted on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nobody is answering the genetic thing.I wonder why people who ridiculize Oscar's idea about other races in Egypt, to say an example,the same people have no objections somewhere else.Let's guess all these was just coincidences -convinient- but egyptian mummies are not fully understood either.Go to:
Title:Mummies subtitles:
Dna testing in Cairo
Royal Mummy DNA Proyect and specially the comments comparing with SouthAmerican mummies BY Imy Unnut in
The Screaming Man or Unknown Man E
In this places the idea is egyptians had caracteristics matching with Hattusas,Carcemish,Kadesh(Turkey) or Kurgans, people from Siberia/Mongolia.The Akkadians were trading with Hitites.It's interesting genes from people from Caucaso Mountains are linked with South American people.Another coincidence?
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felipewerneck (200.216.149.58)
Posted on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 10:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

African yorubas knew american corn 500 years before Columbus.Transoceanic contact is fundamental because of the presence in Polinesia of Ipumea batatas (sweet potatoe)in the year 1000 originated in Peru and Bolivia since it was cultivated 2500 B.C. If polinesian had seen corn in VIII century, they should've imported it as well.So we can guess they reached Peru before VIII and not in XIII Century. The potatoe called "kumara" in maori and quechua words(sound and meaning)is a conection between New Zeland and Peru.
Pineapple was known by Romans; coconut was brought to America from Asia nd so on.
We can find several things in common between Maya culture compared with India and China that make me believe it was very possible culture like egyptian AND OTHERS could travel to America.
The problem is difficult to solve because the historic ANACRONISM and various mechanisms dating history...far from be real science because they depend on interpretation of the examiner.
I doubt we're going to decipher the answer,we must read between the lines and see the thing as a whole and not based only on egyptologists ground.History is having a facelift, just like the sphinx.Also we don't want to believe the oral myths explained by the very egyptians,mexican,peruvian,sumerian and other ancient civilizations.We prefered re-inventing and interpretate the things according to our new western patterns.It doesn't work that way.
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quickmind (146.145.36.41)
Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 08:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oscar,

I don't think that anyone is avoiding the issues you proposed. Rather I think that the points that have been made only reveal the DNA from a few mummies is only a tantalizing taste of what may have been, but that is not enough for a full understanding of what actually happened. There are many intriguing possibilities concerning other races and more importantly AEs on other continents, but without serious research to discover, collect and analyze any remaining tangible evidence, it is all just speculation. It would be nice to see serious resarch into whether there was West African, Nordic, Asian or other contact with ancient South America, along with AE contact, but until someone in or outside the mainstream academic community decides to do it, we will not have an anwer. Suffice to say, I am sure that if any evidence of AE contact is found, you will more than likely hear it debated here! :)

Quickmind
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george (200.188.182.198)
Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 03:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

tobacco samples in Ramses II's abdomen were not dropping.The tests were done again by Dr.Lescot.Years after toxicologist Dr.Svetla Blabanova and 3 different labs confirmed nicotine and cocaine in Egyptian Henut Tawy mummy. The doctors received letters insulting them,threatening them and accusing them of fraud!! No wonder people WANT to remain skeptical
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James M. Vance (4.3.192.28)
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It was with great interest, not in acceptance, that I've read all the postings pro and con about contact between AE and South America One thing springs to mind immediately, though. If the AE did trade and go to South America, why haven't any traditional burials containing mummies or skeletal remains of Egyptian or Egyptian-like people ever been found in South America? Surely all the art, simularity in languages, striking "co-incidences" in artworks, etc. etc. shows that a long period of time elapsed with Egyptians in South America. Didn't they live long enough in the countries to die and be buried there? Until such a find is made, and in spite of all the ramblings and claims made to the contrary, I can see that the only logical assumption is no contact.
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oscar roberts (200.188.181.180)
Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 04:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, me may say genetic studies of the mummies are just beginning to say something.Recently it was found in Peru the lords from Mochica culture, to say an example. How come small indiands nowadays descent from people whose height was extraordinary tall for that time, 1.80 meters? I already told you inca mummies with beards -indians in Peru and Bolivia are beardless- were found to have red beards and very tall as well.In fact the clothes these people were wearing were like turbants.Type of blood was A . How come since that type of blood only came with the coming of the Spaniards? The question is what do we really know about American history? I discovered as a peruvian, Peru government and schools and universities have hid a lot of things that I discovered later on.I just investigate,this is not a dogma,of course.
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James M. Vance (4.3.192.28)
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oscar, the things you cite disproves any AE contact. 1.80 m tall? Not AE1 Beards? Not AE. The AE did not wear turbans. I don't know the blood type of most Egyptians. JD--can you help out here?
What I've been saying is not meant to disprove any contact with the Old World at all--from all the published and unpublished evidence, it seems more than likely. But I think claiming that contact was with ancient Egypt is stretching things a bit...
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oscar (200.167.236.191)
Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 12:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I didn't make myself clear.Last statement wasn't about resemblance between peruvians and egyptians but just an example ancient peruvians were not beardless indians.My point was and still is WE JUST DON'T KNOW MANY THINGS ABOUT PAST HISTORY.Ramses II was a tall guy and blonde like his dad.wOULD we think that if we take a look just at our present time and the likeness of egyptians nowadays?These theme about ethnology really is placed somewhere else.
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oscar (200.195.72.99)
Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I already mentioned enigmatic languages which are jigsaw puzzle for linguists and filologist. There are other people who investigatedthis issue regarding Egypt. If someone is interested or want to comment something about:
www.atlantisquest.com/Linguistics.html
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oscar (200.195.72.99)
Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 10:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

See the discussion in the subtitle "Ancient Egypt and the Silk Road to China under this issue.
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oscar (200.195.68.137)
Posted on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 01:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Regarding Dna exams I found no particular claims here regarding this issue except Imy Unnut's quotation on February 24th, 2000! She said: "There has been SOME DNA research on South American mummies that seems to rule out any Mediterranean/African migration to the Americas, based on lack of any of the various hereditary anemias".She wrote this on subtopic The Screaming Man or Unknown Man E under the topic Mummies.We shall see in the future more exams and contradictions and we will see if the genetic prove shall be the only truth and nothing but the truth about migrations.

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